Foam Tyres - the great debate

[andy110m]

First let me start by saying I fully understand the clubs view about not wanting a big debate over this but I think a discussion is warranted over this subject. I've started a new thread as not to dilute the offical statement.

I believe Simon should be congratulated for a very innovative idea that will save the average club racer a fortune and compromise nothing in doing so, in fact looking at Simons performance I'm sure he'll agree there is a performance benefit. To buy a pair of 8th on road tyres and cut them costs £6.50 for the pair. That does both ends of the car, add the wheels at lets say £5 an end and thats £16.50 for the season in tyres.

Now lets contrast that to what we're now faced with, these are general rounded figures, tyres, £7.50 rear, £6.50 front, wheels £10 set, inserts £2 a pair. So to go racing on rubber costs £28 a set x 6 rounds and we're looking at £168 per season if we only us 1 set a day (some people were using 2 sets due to high tyre wear). That could be a saving of £151.50! And lets think of those doing 2 classes, £35 in foam, £336 in rubber, thats a £301 cost saving!

I'm not trying to get at anyone or upset anyone but real cost saving innovation, and it is innovation, should be encouraged in these tough financial times. Its not beyond anyone to make a set of these up so I really do not see an issue. Some will use additive? I don't think that risk would be any greater than it is now with rubber. Look at touring cars, they run rubber and have a staggering choice of additives. In fact the buggy guys at Ribble run certain ones on Mini Pins at because it extents the life of the tyre by another 2 meetings. That said I do understand the issue and you'd have to trust us that we aren't going to be idiots and spoil it for ourselves and I'd support anyone caught is banned for life from the club. Should be enough incentive not to do it.

If anyone has reasons why they wouldn't want to enjoy such a saving and performance, Simons car was on rails, I'd be interested to hear about it. Like wise I'd be interested in all thoughts.

[bigred5765]

as i see it theres no debate there not allowed end of,
of road car off road tires

[Chrislong]

as i see it theres no debate there not allowed end of,
off road car off road tires

Agreed.
Got to respect the club decision, live with it. Or we could be faced with a control tyres and we don't want that.

BTW im using pre used tyres which Id normally bin. Used Minipins and minispikes, as long as yellow compound work well.

[andy110m]

Chris I agree we have to support the clubs decision and adhere to it but its got to be worth the discussion. I found my tyres got worse round by round and while I accept its the cost of racing, if we could avoid it....

I don't really agree with the "off road car so off road tyres". If that was to truely hold water it would have to be "off road cars so race them outside off road not indoor on the mostly flat".

I know this thread isn't going to change the minds of the officals and nor should it but provided its a constructive well meaning discussion I see no harm in having it. I mean if parliment can debate something that was never going to happen why shouldn't we.

[kayce]

as i see it theres no debate there not allowed end of,
off road car off road tires
:thumbsup:

Chris I agree we have to support the clubs decision and adhere to it but its got to be worth the discussion. I found my tyres got worse round by round and while I accept its the cost of racing, if we could avoid it....

I don't really agree with the "off road car so off road tyres". If that was to truely hold water it would have to be "off road cars so race them outside off road not indoor on the mostly flat".

I know this thread isn't going to change the minds of the officals and nor should it but provided its a constructive well meaning discussion I see no harm in having it. I mean if parliment can debate something that was never going to happen why shouldn't we.

Rationally, your "debate" doesn't hold water because using the same rationale onroad cars should only compete outdoors as well.
When was the last time you saw any indoor 1:1 race (flat or not flat)?

Then, when you factor in that most offroad guys don't have tyre-truers, while overlooking the added investment to do so, the added cost of what you're suggesting makes your original argument totally invalid.

And frankly, once the rules have been decided (what's good for one is good for all, as the rules are the same for all) all you're doing by bringing it up is stirring the pot and trying to start an argument and not "well meaning" at all nor are they doing anyone any good - being as any said "discussions" on the topic were not only likely had prior to the decision, but that's when it's time for those discussions.
After the fact, save it and bring it up next year.

If you're wanting to bring politics, or parliament, into it - then pull on your wig and argue with yourself in the mirror. :p

[Chrislong]

They were quicker, so by allowing them the handful who'd first use them would cause the rest to follow or literally drop several finals (or stop attending). So to allow them is forcing an unofficial control tyre, forcing the spending of money. As it is we can choose to use new rubber tyres (yes, expensive), or use worn tyres leftover from elsewhere.

Simon was told he couldn't use foam tyres at Southport too, so im told. Not sure of it is relevant. #justsaying

On the subject of part worns, ive found them to be more consistent than new. New tyres have taken atleast 1 round to 'come-in'. I also know many racers will use tyres at Worksop, then re-use them here for that reason, so costing £0 to use rubber tyres.

[sly]

They were quicker, so by allowing them the handful who'd first use them would cause the rest to follow or literally drop several finals (or stop attending). So to allow them is forcing an unofficial control tyre, forcing the spending of money. As it is we can choose to use new rubber tyres (yes, expensive), or use worn tyres leftover from elsewhere.

Simon was told he couldn't use foam tyres at Southport too, so im told. Not sure of it is relevant. #justsaying

On the subject of part worns, ive found them to be more consistent than new. New tyres have taken atleast 1 round to 'come-in'. I also know many racers will use tyres at Worksop, then re-use them here for that reason, so costing £0 to use rubber tyres.


In red Chris,

Who and when was i ever told i couldnt use them at Southport?

The batley crew have made the decision and thats fine.

[Chrislong]

:blush:Sorry Si I seem to be wrong. I was watching you and somebody said, can't recall who, so its hearsay.

[sly]

:blush:Sorry Si I seem to be wrong. I was watching you and somebody said, can't recall who, so its hearsay.

Very much hearsay,
but since i asked if i could use foams and the answer at the time was yes, i used them.

[Chrislong]

Which is fair enough you've done nowt wrong.

[bigred5765]

as you say if they work, there faster and cheap and could guarantee no use of additives everyone would be on em including Matty, but we cant so as i said pointless talking about it,weve used them in the past many moons ago,but didnt feel there in line with a offroad car, so stopped using them,

[andy110m]

Guys , I think we are losing sight that this is toy car racing. That is why its is being done indoor. Be it off road or on road, why should it be so critical what tyres we use when they'd save us a fortune, give a great days racing and are accessable to everyone.

Someone mentioned rules, Simon asked if he could run them and was told yes, there is no tyre rule. So the rules have been set for everyone, we could have all turned up with foams, it was only Simon who had the sense and forsight to do so.

Chris, I think we already have an unoffical tyre control, you have to have good yellow mini's. I know you used part worns but can you honestly say you couldn't have gone quicker with a new scrubbed set?

So thats why while respecting the decision of the club to introduce a tyre policy I think it is worth talking about this, and of course its well meaning, we're all grown ups and understand its not going to change. Its also why I left this thread until they had made a decision.

Finally, at Kayce, the parliment comment was obviously a joke, I wasn't bringing politics into anything but when was the last time you saw a politician wearing a wig? I think you're getting politicians confused with barristers in the law courts:D

[andys]

Only just read this, quite a while after seeing how well the foams went at Chadderton.

Personally I'm a bit disappointed as I too saw a fantastic money saving tyre alternative.

As said, this is 'Toy Car' racing, the whole off road comments are nonsense IMO, most of the floor was very, very flat, and it sure as hell wasn't offroad :)

Also, you wouldn't need a tyre truer !! Back in the day I ran foams indoors, you just chop em down and stick em on.

We all know you need decent tyres to be competitive, tyres are today one of a drivers biggest expenses, shame we are not taking the opportunity to save ourselves a shed load of cash.

Glad I read this before I ordered a couple of sets of foams for the next round...

[WHITTLER555]

AndyS

"most of the floor was very, very flat, and it sure as hell wasn't offroad"


Thanks mate, we spent 2 hours on Saturday morning building that track and we thought we had put quite a good mix of off road elements into it.

Obviously not up to your standard then.

Please feel free to turn up on Saturday 19th November and help out building an off road track:p

[tisher]

I run foams the other week at ribble mainly due to tyre costs so thought I would give them ago. I did not like them running a 5.5t motor in a lazer car was all over the place although they seem to work well on lower motor 2wds for some reason:confused:

[andys]

Damo

Never said the track wasn't good :)

I just think the 'off road' comments are nonsense, mini pins for example are mainly an indoor tyre. By 'off road' I was referring to the outdoor nature of our hobby, not the specific track features.

I always help build Batley tracks on Sunday race days, but getting Saturday morning off too with 3 small kids to look after would cause a divorce...

I appreciate it lots when other people sort the track out as I know it's not easy - so thank you for that.

Just liked the idea of buying one set of tyres for the whole series :)

[WHITTLER555]

The problem with foams as I see it is where does it end?

I would buy them, then i would buy additive to make them even grippier then you could buy softer compounds and on and on and on.

My reason for going racing is to control a car on a slippy surface and control the slides and test my skill at that against the other drivers.

Foams are for touring cars on flat tracks as you noted in your original comments.

I appreciate there is a cost to buying tyres but last Sunday on my 4WD I had to run used spikes left over from the outdoor series, so you don't HAVE to buy them.

In 2WD I tried spikes and minipins and was outqualified by Lee Fraser who was running spikes all day and he reckoned the more worn they were the better grip they gave.

In the end the club has made a decision, nobody has complained about running normal off road tyres for the previous three years at Chadderton so I don't see why it would be different now?

[andys]

Fair comments Damo.

So the nightmare I had with my 210 was down to my tyres being half decent, when they should be jiggered :)

Are the 'slick' rubber tyres that are in the Durango thread banned too then, as they looked like another very cost effective option ?

[kayce]

The problem with foams as I see it is where does it end?

I would buy them, then i would buy additive to make them even grippier then you could buy softer compounds and on and on and on.

My reason for going racing is to control a car on a slippy surface and control the slides and test my skill at that against the other drivers.

Foams are for touring cars on flat tracks as you noted in your original comments.

In the end the club has made a decision, nobody has complained about running normal off road tyres for the previous three years at Chadderton so I don't see why it would be different now?

Yup :thumbsup: and yet this seems to be an argument that's brewed up every year at this time of year when everyone moves indoors for the winter.

And the problem with any of the "arguments" is that first some guy comes along and suggests his cheap foam way is the best.
So everybody has to run out and buy foams they don't have, to copy what the first guy did.
Then another guy comes along and he finds a better way, that probably costs more, and the first guy whines.
Then yet another guy comes along and his way trumps everyone elses, he starts winning races, and everyone else starts using that method (while the first two guys are still whining) - and everyone else realizes they made an outlay for three sets of tires (each one faster than the last) and it never ends.
And you've got Tyre Wars.

Meanwhile if everyone's running rubbers, tires they all have access to, it ends up being cheaper for everyone over the long run.

[WHITTLER555]

Fair comments Damo.

So the nightmare I had with my 210 was down to my tyres being half decent, when they should be jiggered :)

Are the 'slick' rubber tyres that are in the Durango thread banned too then, as they looked like another very cost effective option ?

Hi Andy, I found at Chadderton which was the first time I ran the 210, I could make it really safe and consistent but a tad understeery with spikes or I could make it somewhat twitchy and it felt faster with minipins.

In the end the pins were slightly faster in that I was on 13 laps 3 seconds with spikes and with pins I got into the 14 laps 18 seconds.

I am sure with more set up time we can make both tyre combo's faster it just takes a bit of trial and error.

Come over next time and we will try some different setups, I already have another change I want to make to my car to increase rear grip which is giving it maximum toe in on the hubs, but I don't want to lose steering so i am going to play with less castor.

[ASR]

I can see both sides of the argument on this one.

Would it not be simpler and more cost effective to have a control tyre, and for a nominated manufacturer to offer their tyres at a reduced rate for competitors?. Meaning reduced costs for us, eradicating the "which tyre saga" and providing a good marketing opportunity for the chosen brand?

Maybe its not as simple as this in real life i don't know as i have no experience of organizing meetings, just my opinion.:confused:

[paulc]

I think if it does become a controlled tyre event theres only Schumacher mini pins and mini spikes i think thats what most people are running anyway or the DBoots terrabites or the new one there bringing out

[Cockerill]

The current method is probably cheapest for the majority, as racers can use their tires elsewhere, and generally the tires that work are readily available to everyone.

Regarding foams, I'm pretty sure it would soon become expensive. You would soon find that as they wear they become better, so you'll start truing new tires down to the optimum diameter, which will then wear down past the optimum and you'll need a new set next week.

You've got the possibility of chunking tires and ruining a set in a matter of minutes, never mind meetings. And the addative thing can't be controlled by Ifmar at a worlds meeting, so how do you expect a club run by very few volunteers with no real scrutineering to manage it? And someone will try it because we're all competitive at heart, and it will provide an advantage.

Finally they make a shed load of mess from what I've seen!

[andy110m]

Or we could just have a open tyre choice and use whatever we like.

I agree with Kayce, we are likely to follow the quickest option but in that given example we have all only bought 3 sets of tyres at less than the cost of rubber tyres.

What could happen now is someone turn up with 6 new sets and run a new set every run. I doubt this would happen but it could and if its was faster where would that leave us? Worksop have a control tyre but they don't limit the amount of sets used.

Foams where a great cheap idea and they've been banned without any consultation with the racers. I'm sure if a vote where to be had at the next round it would be very close. But leaving that aside, then to say they have to be spiked tyres to effectively ban the VBC rubber tyres, looks to me like we are being steered by commerical forces rather than looking after the racers and thats upsetting.

Damo on the point of additive, why don't you use rubber tyre additive on your mini pins, because its banned. We could easily keep that ban and enforcing it would be easy. By the way I too thought the track was really good, thanks very much for the effort and that goes to the club to. Its a really good event that I really enjoyed but I really can't understand this decision. If you like rubber and are happy with them, run rubber, if like me your tighter than cramp and want to save money, lets try foam. Each to there own.

[Cockerill]

I agree with Kayce, we are likely to follow the quickest option but in that given example we have all only bought 3 sets of tyres at less than the cost of rubber tyres.

Or to put it another way, you've turned up to 3 meetings with the wrong tires, so essentially you've actually wasted your money on the 3 sets of cheap tires and the fuel and entry fee to attend three meetings, quite a lot!!

Whereas how it is now, pretty much everyone knows what tires work, there all pretty close in terms of times, so you can tune your car using tiresfor personal preference, and you know you can turn up to the meeting with the correct set of tires, so no money wasted on entry or fuel :thumbsup:

[andy110m]

The person cheating would be using a lot of kitchen towel. They have to be dried before used on the track to get the real benefit. But to control the use of additive, spot checks, are your tyres wet or damp? If so, sorry your out of the meeting and the series. I'd do that if needs be.

It sounds harsh but I'm sure it'd be incentive not to do it. I'm sure someone would say I ran it in the pits and knocked over some water, really an accident that covered all the tyres width with the same amount of liquid. Sorry no middle ground, you're gone.

I don't understand foams without additive been messy?

[Cockerill]

If it was really that simple to detect addative I'm sure the proffessionals of this industry wouldn't have problems detecting it at the worlds, but if you read any race report from the last 2-3 1/8th worlds you'll soon realise that the addative can't be tech'd without a complex machine.

In my very limited experience of foam tires, they generate a lot of black dust when they wear (regardless of addative), this has to go somewhere and be cleaned up by someone, another job for them very few club volunteers.

[andy110m]

3 wasted sets? no, maybe not optimum but certainly better than rubber and they can be used in alot of clubs. In the northwest, Ribble valley, Roundabout and Southport are all local clubs that allow foam tyres. And at £6.50 a car set its still looking good. That 3 sets will allow racing till we go back outdoors around the end of March.

Tom, how many sets did you use at Chadderton and just out of interest how many do you think you'll use this weekend at Worksop?

If rubber is the way forward why don't we have a one set per day rule, what you use in practice is what says on all day. Mark them up after practice and away we go. At least that would minimise the cost.

[Cockerill]

The problem with marking up tires is that it requires a lot more effort on behalf of the club, which just doesn't have the man power. And people may have 2 or 3 part worn sets that they want to use in one day.

I use 1 set per meeting at Worksop and Chadderton, as do most of the A finalists that I'm aware of. The set I used at Chadderton has also done two club meetings a week since!!

[andy110m]

At the worlds teams are going to great lengths to bring in tyres in sealed bags, pre dried and I agree, at that stage its very hard to detect. But it has to be applied every run and we are all pitting in a close environment. I think it would be easy because left to dry it would take hours, so you'll see people applying, having wet tyres sat and then drying. Thats how they sorted at the worlds, made everyone do all tyre prep in one room together. It became self policing.

Tyre dust, yes they do produce tyre dust like every tyre we use, rubber or foam. Have a look inside a touring car bodyshell after a run and you'll see masses of the stuff off rubber tyres. Its the same for buggys, it just doesn't have anywhere to settle.

[andy110m]

I do agree I can't see an easy why of doing the tyre marking unless we made it part of booking in. We all queue up so couldn't we make that part of the process? I don't know but I can't understand why you'd want to use 2 or 3 worn sets in a day unless it was for a performance advantage?

I got the impression that the top drivers were using 2 sets, I spoke to one drivers who told me, a part worn set for practice, new for round 1 to 3 then another new set for round 4 and the finals.

Now if that is or does become common place...:(

[kayce]

3 wasted sets? no, maybe not optimum but certainly better than rubber......

Except for the fact, if reading all over literally everyone's running the same types of rubbers - and how many offroaders have foams, or a trueing machine?

....and they can be used in alot of clubs. In the northwest, Ribble valley, Roundabout and Southport are all local clubs that allow foam tyres.

I always luv this excuse, because it doesn't take into account that literally nobody races with several different clubs.

[andy110m]

I and a good few at Chadderton race at all those clubs? (when the missus let me of course - I've needed to be good to play out on a Wednesday, Friday and Sunday!)

For the last time you don't need a tyre truer. Just stick them on, its really easy.

Cut them to width with knife. Stretch over wheel. Stick a screwdriver inbetween the tyre and wheel. pour in glue, rotate screwdriver around the wheel. Pull out screwdriver. Job done.

[Cockerill]

Trust me, marking up 120 sets of tires will take a while, and needs a dedicated person for the job.

People may have a part worn set from Worksop and another part worn set from chadderton the week before, instead of putting 1 new set on they might prefer to use both the part worn sets to save on money. You may start the day on pins, but then want to try spikes, there's a whole host of reasons of why you might want to use worn tires. Restricting everyone to A single set of tires almost ensures they have to have a new set.

I can 100% assure that I only used 1 set per meeting, as do the majority at worksop that im aware of. If your going to use more than 1 set you'd stagger them between meetings. So you start the day on a set, and put a new set on for round 4, then you'll use that set at the next meeting until round 3, then put a new set on for round 4. Works out a at 7 sets over 6 meetings.

[Cockerill]

For the last time you don't need a tyre truer. Just stick them on, its really easy

You don't need one yet.... If foams were allowed and people found an advantage in truing tires they would do it!!

As an example, if foams were allowed, I'd probably turn up with 3-4 different sets to test different things (hardness, diameter, width). I wouldn't enjoy it, but if there was an advantage to be gained I'd try to find it. As it is at the minute I turn up with 1 set of tires and know I'm good to go for the day! The advantage to be gained at the minute comes from car setup and driver skill.

[kayce]

I and a good few at Chadderton race at all those clubs? (when the missus let me of course - I've needed to be good to play out on a Wednesday, Friday and Sunday!)

For the last time you don't need a tyre truer. Just stick them on, its really easy.

Cut them to width with knife. Stretch over wheel. Stick a screwdriver inbetween the tyre and wheel. pour in glue, rotate screwdriver around the wheel. Pull out screwdriver. Job done.

Well, that explains everything then - YOU want to only have to buy one set of tires to run at three tracks, meanwhile overlooking the other Batley guys that will have to go out and buy foams just to race you.

For the last time you do need a tyre truer. The last "stick 'em on, it's easy" guy died sometime back in the mid 1980s. :woot:


As an example, if foams were allowed, I'd probably turn up with 3-4 different sets to test different things (hardness, diameter, width). I wouldn't enjoy it, but if there was an advantage to be gained I'd try to find it. As it is at the minute I turn up with 1 set of tires and know I'm good to go for the day!

And it would turn into a tyre-buying contest - just like in 12th scale - with guys truing them down to thing little strips and making one-run tyres.... and then any supposed savings scenario goes right out the window with a bunch of tyre dust.

[total newbie]

Hi Tom, from ear wigging trackside the control tire is going to be dBoots, so it seems your trying to defend something that your sponsor/boss won't like.
From reading and hearing trackside all this it appears that one person is to blame and that's who ever first started a complaint about the foams when the tires choice was open and permission was given to use them.
It appears to boil down to keep the sponsors happy and forget the drivers pockets.
Jake.

[Cockerill]

I wasn't aware that there was goin to be a control tire, my understanding was it was going to be an open tire event, so long as the tires are a rubber style spiked tire.

I'm trying to defend the choice to not accept foam tires, as I believe as a racer it will make the events less enjoyable, increas the costs and put people off attending.

If we were to accept foam tires I'd be running contact foams, a Schumacher based company, so that wouldn't be a problem, doesn't mean I think it's a good idea though.

[Chrislong]

The beauty of Chadderton, is that the surface doesn't require new tyres. I find new tyres slower than 1 runners, and those 1 runners last til the centre is literally bald.... so im using at round 2 the set I used at round 1, which had also been used at a club meeting before that.... and im not dissadvantaged by it. When this set of tyres #1 wear, I'll put some worn Minispikes on from outdoors... £0 additional cost incurred.... other racers must be doing same as me?

To allow foams, I would be dissadvantaged with rubber as would anybody else, I would feel obliged to use them to keep up costing me money.... likely id just not turn up though. Im sure others would feel the same. Im racing chadderton as its only costing me fuel and booking in, its a chilled out meeting, no hassle.

Control tyre I don't mind as long as they're rubber, Id buy them once, make them last like I do now.

Controlling numbers used is pointless here, as part worn tyres are of no dissadvantage. Let the racers use as many new as they want, they have no advantage. Controlling numbers used is only worth considering if using new gave a big advantage.

[tony12795]

@ Total Newbie

dBoots are not the controlled tyre, there is no controlled tyre, they only support the meeting with discount at the track shop.

I used one set of tyres all day like Tom and I did this all last year, but from memory I think some people are racing at Worksop with one set and the using that set at Chadderton as I think there better at Chadderton warn (Nearly Bald).

Tony

[andy110m]

So If we are incorrect and as total Newbie suggests its doesn't boil down to keeping the sponsors happy and forgetting the drivers pockets, why does it have to be spiked rubber tyres?

I'd be happy running the VBC, or atleast trying them because the reports from other countries seem really favourable.

I think thats called a compromise?

Chris I think your'e right, the 2nd run on the mini's from new is the best but they get slower run by run after that, granted not by alot. Foams would be consistant run after run, round by round.

I think some people are also losing site about why this idea is popular, its about saving money not, spending loads to get all the different compounds and truing them down to nothing.

Interesting to start reading more support for this from the low ranks of the meeting, (thats me) rather than the A final faithful, everythings fine as it is.

[Chrislong]

Hows it saving money?! For me and other racers like me using worn tyres from elsewhere - it'd cost me money I don't want to spend.

[Cockerill]

I think some people are also losing site about why this idea is popular, its about saving money not, spending loads to get all the different compounds and truing them down to nothing.

If you want to save money run a 'full spike' style tire or harder compound. Both should easily last the duration of the series and probably the next one too.

I'm going to take a stab in the dark and assume you don't want to do this because it will be slower, and I agree. That's why if we all started running foams and there was an advantage to truing them down to a slither and getting one run out of them, you would have to do it, or you'd accept been slower. Well if your going to accept that, see my suggestion above, if not then you'll be left truing tires.

[Oscar]

It appears to boil down to keep the sponsors happy and forget the drivers pockets.
Jake.

The reason behind the decision was quite clearly stated by the club chairman.
The club will not risk losing the use of any of its venues by allowing activites which could potentially cause damage.

[bigred5765]

just spent the last 20mins reading every reply and most if not all are pointless, the rule is no foams, end of,argue all you want there banned,

[kayce]

If you want to save money run a 'full spike' style tire or harder compound. Both should easily last the duration of the series and probably the next one too.

I'm going to take a stab in the dark and assume you don't want to do this because it will be slower, and I agree. That's why if we all started running foams and there was an advantage to truing them down to a slither and getting one run out of them, you would have to do it, or you'd accept been slower. Well if your going to accept that, see my suggestion above, if not then you'll be left truing tires.

:thumbsup:

It always seem that the people that say "foams are cheaper" are people that haven't run foams for any period - being as anybody that has would tell them that foams (while faster) are quite easily the most expensive way to go, along with why so many touring car series have advocated rubbers (to save competitors' money).

just spent the last 20mins reading every reply and most if not all are pointless, the rule is no foams, end of,argue all you want there banned,

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

End of story! At which point there should not even be a discussion going on, here, at all.
People that want a rules change should wait until next year, and make their submission to the chairman at that time.

[andys]

Only just seen the clubs statement re additive damaging the floor.

Fair play - it's the main argument that really makes sense to me.

[kayce]

del...

[Oscar]

How would advocating foams be "fair play"???? :confused:

Unless I'm reading it wrong, I think all Andy is saying is he understands why the decision has been made.

[andys]

John.

You read it right :)

Andy

[DCM]

If it was really that simple to detect addative I'm sure the proffessionals of this industry wouldn't have problems detecting it at the worlds, but if you read any race report from the last 2-3 1/8th worlds you'll soon realise that the addative can't be tech'd without a complex machine.

In my very limited experience of foam tires, they generate a lot of black dust when they wear (regardless of addative), this has to go somewhere and be cleaned up by someone, another job for them very few club volunteers.

The issue at the world, was that there was a control additive, and people were using other additives, as the control one didn't work.

Right, in buggies, you get no advantage to trying them down skinny, but they do need truing to make them round and take out wear from running camber. You can't run down to soft on the shore rating, as you get grip roll, and additive just makes it worse.

Alsom they only then work if the track is 100% carpet, put a bit of shiny on the corners, and they are pants.

We allow them at our club, and a lot of drivers go back to rubbers as it makes the cars easier to drive.

[mattb]

These are the bald tyres i used and had loads of steeringhttp://i1121.photobucket.com/albums/l507/mdb1264/e716acc0.jpg

[Col]

Impressively knackered Matt.

[andy110m]

Well fair enough you've all convinced me. Foams must be crap.

£6.50 a car set that lasts a season with better than rubber performance - what was I thinking?

I keep reading about additive? How many people are saucing their rubber tyres? Most additives these days are developed for rubber and i've raced at clubs where its commonly used and it makes a massive difference.

I've got fed up with this, seems people who do this hobby are loaded and money saving is of no concern, anyone who suggests such a thing must be a fool, lets all keep throwing money at it!

But can anyone please tell me for about the fifth time of asking why can we not try the VBC RUBBER tyres? Why must it be spiked tyres? And when does a spiked tyre become illegal because its worn down and its no longer spiked.

[kayce]

Well fair enough you've all convinced me. Foams must be crap.
£6.50 a car set that lasts a season with better than rubber performance - what was I thinking?

I've got fed up with this, seems people who do this hobby are loaded and money saving is of no concern, anyone who suggests such a thing must be a fool, lets all keep throwing money at it!

But can anyone please tell me for about the fifth time of asking why can we not try the VBC RUBBER tyres? Why must it be spiked tyres? And when does a spiked tyre become illegal because its worn down and its no longer spiked.

Only person who's said they were cheaper was you, but I'm sorry the facts suggest quite the opposite to be true.
In all my years running foam tyres I've never had a set last a season - and faster on the flat sections doesn't neccessarily equate to better performance, just faster on flat. But again, it still shouldn't justify all the other Batley members buying them when they already have tyres that meet with the club leadership's approval.

[andy110m]

The person that said they are cheaper is the man running them in the first place and looking at what he did I completely believe him. Anyway lets leave foams alone. I'm more than happy to see the members your talking about spend thick end of twenty quid a set every round.

What I was saying is could we try the VBC rubber tyres? Simon asked and was told no because they aren't spiked. I'd just like this to be confirmed and maybe a reason for it?

[kayce]

The person that said they are cheaper is the man running them in the first place and looking at what he did I completely believe him. I'm more than happy to see the members your talking about spend thick end of twenty quid a set every round.

Yet another exaggerated tale. :rolleyes:

[Andyp]

Them vbc's are £22 a set with postage and it is advised that the inserts are no good , I dunno how long they will last as I have never tried them but if you are on a tight budget I'm sure a set of mini pins could last two rounds @ chadderton that's £7-£8 worth of tyre per meeting as you could cut the insert out and acetone the wheels to re-use only having to buy a new set of tyres every other meet. Considering most people will have spent around £500-£1000+ on a car , radio, elecs spares ect I don't think the cost of tyres are a factor.

[Chrislong]

I'm more than happy to see the members your talking about spend thick end of twenty quid a set every round.


Get off your high horse Andy Cotton, this topic was put to bed before you started it. See my post re: what I and many others are spending, see Tom's post re: how racing on foams escalates.

[andy110m]

Exaggerated? Don't see how, £8+£2+£7+£2= £19. Looks like the thick end of 20 to me. Sorry you're going to come back and say you're going to reuse the inserts, fine. £8+£7=£15. Still only getting a fiver back from that twenty!

I didn't want to be on anything, let alone a high horse, but that was a great idea in a open tyre competition and I see its just been slapped aside with no real justification. Just arguements that could be applied to both sides.

I agree with Andyp, with the amount of money we invest in the hobby, tyres at an individual event isn't an issue, but it does add up and anywhere we can reduce costs to everyone I'm all for trying and see where it goes. If it did turn in to a 12th style tyre war I'd be saying we should look at it but did Simon have lots of sets? Did he have them trued to elastic bands on wheels, did he use additive, did he chunk them and replace them every run, did they wear or change over the day or did his car come off covered in tyre dust? The answer to all these is No!

And for most of the reasons above I'd like to try the VBC's. Yes they are £22 a set and we'll probably want to spend another £4 on better inserts but I'm sure they'd give alot of the benefits of foam without being foam.

[DCM]

You could always take a set of worn yellows and dremmel off the lumps of spikes?

[Cockerill]

I'll simply refer to my previous post:

'If you want to save money run a 'full spike' style tire or harder compound. Both should easily last the duration of the series and probably the next one too.'

It fits the club rules, fits the spirit of off road racing and everyone will be happy. Currently for ~90%+ everybody's happy with the rule, entries are over subscribed at the meetings, the series is looking very healthy. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

[kayce]

but did Simon have lots of sets?

So because he didn't, you're saying others wouldn't?

Did he have them trued to elastic bands on wheels

That's in fact what happens, in any foam-tyre class.

did he use additive

I would, and I suggest I could do it an nobody could catch me.

did he chunk them and replace them every run

Somebody would, maybe after one run, and it would piss them off and it might chase them off.

did they wear or change over the day

If you're saying they don't, then is shows a lack of experience with foams.

did his car come off covered in tyre dust?

Of course not, that would be the corner of the hall where I'd have my tyre-truing machine.

The answer to all these is No!

Really? :rolleyes:

Exaggerated? Don't see how

Because for everyone that runs foam-tyred cars KNOWS you should have a minimum of one set per run on hand, even just in case you chunk a tire, and different compounds available dependent on the ambient temp and to adjust as the traction comes up and the racing line rubbers in. Meanwhile, I'm pretty sure everyone that runs rubbers says the same tyres they arrived at the track with last week are the same ones they'll be running next week and the week after and the week after that and the week after that...


Again andy110m - why should all the Batley members feel forced to buy foam tyres because of one guy going against the norm, when they've already invested in rubbers that meet the rules set aside for the season?

[DCM]

Kayce, if you are talking 12th or saloon 10th on a high grip carpet, then yes, but on buggies, rolling diameter isn't to much of an issue, and you need to keep some meat on the foam as if you true them to far, you lose control of the chassis attitude over any jumps. A decent set of foams, mounted on rims correctly, should last a lot longer than a set of pins or spikes, but they do handle differently, and any shinny stuff, and the foams get clogged with dust and lost lots of grip.

[kayce]

Sorry DCM, but my experiences are based on having run foams on buggies on carpet the last 5 winters - and my observances trackside. I don't care as I have tyre sponsors, but for the first-timers trying to compete I feel it's going to put them at an unfair disadvantage. IMHO

[Stephen Lawson]

Reference Foam Tyres

During the first round of 2011/12 series it was brought to the club’s attention that foam tyres were being used at the meeting,

We have been asked to clarify our position on the use of foam tyres at future meetings.

After discussion between officials, the club has decided that the use of foam tyres will not be allowed at future meeting as there is no guarantee that additives would not be used if foam tyres became the favoured tyres as additives could potentially damage the floor., This would result in repair costs that the club could not afford.

As of round two only rubber style spike tyres will be allowed, (e.g. dboot, mini pins) as traditionally used at 1/10th off road meeting.

Please contact me via PM if any more information is required as we do not wish this matter to become a forum debate.

Stephen Lawson
Chairman
Batley Buggy Club

[andy110m]

Hi Guys, I can now see why Kayce isn't keen on foams, he has a tyre sponsor and could possibly be using additive because he believes he can get away with it. Of course I joking about that but I can't understand why people think its not an issue with rubber but would be with foam.

Come on guys lets keep this sensible. As DCM says 12th true tyres for reason that don't apply to us, as did touring cars. But we need the harder compound and for that reason we have no need of truing them and in fact it would be a disadvantage. If anyone had a truer in the corner making alot of mess I'm sure a stern word would be had.

As for the next issue, the Batley members having to buy one set of foams, or lets assume they puch the boat out and buy two for the crazy money of £14.

I'm sure they have to buy tyres at some point, they aren't going to buy one set of mini's and expect them to last all year are they?

Tom asked about why not run Blues or full spikes, because they aren't fast. Simple, they last but are slow. So why not have fast and last? Simon will confirm but I think he said he lost 1mm on the outside diameter, so 0.5mm over the course of the day at round 1. But I can see this isn't idea isn't popular so as I've already said, what was I thinking?

Steve I can see you don't want people to discuss this but I can't really understand why? It doesn't put any bad light on the club and if fact, we are all in agreement, its a fantastic series run by a great club. At the end of the day its just a discussion, that I hoped was to be constructive. Your statement is simple and to the fact as a statement should be, just be nice to get some of the reasoning behind it and a view why the VBC's shouldn't be allowed. Again I think they'll be fast at Chadderton and being designed for indoor or tarmac, they should give a really good life span. Oh and they are made out of that stuff you guys all love buying, Rubber!:p

[kayce]

Come on guys lets keep this sensible. As DCM says 12th true tyres for reason that don't apply to us, as did touring cars. But we need the harder compound and for that reason we have no need of truing them and in fact it would be a disadvantage. If anyone had a truer in the corner making alot of mess I'm sure a stern word would be had.

That is outright crazy nutcase talk. I've mounted thousands of foam tires, and maybe one in 100 requires little or no truing.
And the "foam dust mess in the corner" is something you can't stop, if you're going to allow foams.

Hi Guys, I can now see why Kayce isn't keen on foams, he has a tyre sponsor and could possibly be using additive because he believes he can get away with it. Of course I joking about that but I can't understand why people think its not an issue with rubber but would be with foam. :p

I have rubber and foam tyre sponsors, it makes no difference to me either way. I can get any tyre I want, in any hardness I want, any time I want, and I have both a home and portable truing machine. I don't care!
What I'm trying to support is the idea of NOT making it more expensive for the guys that don't have foams and already have suitable rubber tyres - along with repeatedly pointing out the Batley Club organizers have already made their decision regarding the 2011-12 season.
End of story!

BUT, you keep trying to twist the discussion around into something that's not rational, with inaccurate information, serves no point - and does nobody any good except for YOU because you want to run foams.

Contact Stephen Lawson (Batley club chairman) here via PM, stop rattling cages and let it go. ;)

[Cockerill]

OK, my last post on this issue.

If everyone started running foams I guarentee that I would be turning up with multiple sets of different compound/diameter tires, and would definitely use more than one set in a day. I know this because someone with a lot of foam tire off road experience has told me what it's like. So if you wanted to be on the 'fast tire', like you do now with rubber, you would have to do the same.

Secondly, regarding the spike issue, why not contact Steve about it, as he stated if you want more information. I have my own ideas of why they have the rule they have, but to get the correct answer Steve is probably your best bet.

[mattb]

Reference Foam Tyres

During the first round of 2011/12 series it was brought to the club’s attention that foam tyres were being used at the meeting,

We have been asked to clarify our position on the use of foam tyres at future meetings.

After discussion between officials, the club has decided that the use of foam tyres will not be allowed at future meeting as there is no guarantee that additives would not be used if foam tyres became the favoured tyres as additives could potentially damage the floor., This would result in repair costs that the club could not afford.

As of round two only rubber style spike tyres will be allowed, (e.g. dboot, mini pins) as traditionally used at 1/10th off road meeting.

Please contact me via PM if any more information is required as we do not wish this matter to become a forum debate.

Stephen Lawson
Chairman
Batley Buggy Club
Any chance of useing sponge tyres?

[reelman_fishing]

Any chance of useing sponge tyres?

Would that be natural sponge or synthetic sponge. LOL :confused: :confused: :confused:

[DCM]

As DCM says 12th true tyres for reason that don't apply to us, as did touring cars. But we need the harder compound and for that reason we have no need of truing them and in fact it would be a disadvantage. If anyone had a truer in the corner making alot of mess I'm sure a stern word would be had.

Sorry, incorrect, you will still need to try them after making them, to get them round and all the same size, just no need to true them during the day.

[total newbie]

[/QUOTE]

The reason behind the decision was quite clearly stated by the club chairman.
The club will not risk losing the use of any of its venues by allowing activites which could potentially cause damage.

Potentially damage can come from all these shock oils, super glue, cleaning aerosols and even 12volt batterys,

These are the bald tyres i used and had loads of steeringhttp://i1121.photobucket.com/albums/l507/mdb1264/e716acc0.jpg
some might say they are legal.

[Chrislong]

Hey Andy,
correction to my earlier threads.... im going to use new tyres on Sunday! and I can't help but think of you as I do it, and I laugh, as I don't care... im just a rebel... :thumbsup: ha ha. See you Sunday mate.

[andy110m]

Hi Chris, I'm really looking forward to Sunday, the last meeting was fantastic, and I too will have new boots on each car as I'm sure will most people.

I'm completely fine with that, the point I wanted to discuss is would foam make racing cheaper and attract even more people longer term into the hobby. Simon was again out with his foams on Sunday, another day for him with next to no wear, great grip and then back in his box for the next meeting where they'll offer exactly the same performance as last time.

However that said Tom and I discussed this topic at Worksop and he's convinced me this would go wrong from the top down. Simon and every day racers are really happy with what he's got but the top guys would want the best and nothing less. To get to the best Tom was suggesting he'd be turning up with at least 10 sets of foams, all different compounds, different diameters to find the last 10th. And thats when this idea falls down because what Tom's describing has a name, its called a tyre war and thats in nobodys interest so I guess we have to stay as we are, spending lots of money on lots of new tyres. Or at least a set a meeting as Chris has honestly admitted. He wants to do well so he's going to use new tyres, no one can blame him for that but if used ones, like the set he used at Worksop, were every bit as quick would he be using new ones?

Anyway I think we've covered this academic topic and reached an conclusion that no one can argue against. Whilst the theory is sound, in practice it would be flawed by human nature.

So I'm going to sit here, watch the rest of the England game, glue my tyres up and look forward to what I'm sure will be another great meeting on Sunday.:thumbsup:

[andys]

Havent looked at this thread for ages, but reading the last post, couldn't resist :)

There already is a tyre war ! Always has being, always will be !

Look at the top lads pit tables and you'll see (as I did at the last meeting) masses of brand new tyres gluing up, no doubt with different inserts, tyre types etc, all to find the best performing combo.

For the average club racer, a foam tyre war is no different to a rubber one, with the exception that you (the average jo) will spend much less in the long run.

Top drivers (who possibly don't buy their own tyres ?) will always look for the extra speed and advantage if it doesn't hit them in the pocket. For the rest of us, anything that makes the hobby cheaper is good news IMO.

I too will be gluing new tyres for Sunday. Anyone who reckons older ones are as good is just kidding themselves, still won't win though :)

[Chrislong]

Im looking forward to Sunday too.

I would re-use my last tyres except iv bought a Centro C4.1. So no point starting out on used tyres. Start with confidence on new and can make better informed setup changes...

See you Sunday mate.

[WHITTLER555]

****

[kayce]

For the average club racer, a foam tyre war is no different to a rubber one, with the exception that you (the average jo) will spend much less in the long run.

:eh?: Hogwash

[NickC]

Iv only just seen this one and thought id add my bit. I spent quite a while racing against simon at southport using his "wonder" foams. I was always of the opinion they should have been banned and were not intended for off road buggys. If for no other reason than its not in the spirit of off road racing.

I also agree there is no way you could just glue them on, they would need to be trued and run in to the camber angles, again where does this end. Its simple physics the tyre would work better when the angle is matched that of the buggy. I also think as tom says if this was the route you were going to explore then you would need to start off with a few different compounds and also different diameters, i imagine larger diameters would have the advantage of some tyre compression and the smaller for a lower polar moment and also roll centre, which all leads to more testing and money for extra sets.

As for the traction compound i think that needs to be avoided at all costs. At the end of the day its toy car racing and needs to be fun so why make it even more hard work. I no longer race any more but as its something that used to frustrate me when i was racing so thought id share my views.