NiMh or Lipo???? [Archive] - oOple.com Forums

RogerM

03-03-2008, 05:40 PM

Ok, we all know what we can and can not run for 2008 and that is how it will be.

What I am interested in is what people think about Lipo and if they would run them if they could ......

So what is your current preference .... Lipo or NiMh???? Forget 'the list', forget what series your planning on racing in 2008 ...... just answer with your preference as if there were no lists or series restrictions (and why if you like).

I am just interested in peoples thoughts on the matter as with any potential technology change it will give rise to other changes along the way.

DCM

03-03-2008, 05:42 PM

from what I understand, if you intend to race regionals, you will not be able to score points in off-road.

Northy

03-03-2008, 05:48 PM

NiMh - I fear change :woot:

G

burgie

03-03-2008, 05:59 PM

Lipo.....because i am a lazy racer :p

the only maintenance i do on my car between races now is to either mend it or re-adjust the camber, or i might change the tyres if the ones i have on stop gripping.

I run brushless so i dont have to skim, and i run lipos because i dont have to be particularly careful charging them (obviously i follow manufacturers recommendations) or nursing them to keep them in tip top condition....just balance charge 'em and race 'em. no difference in performance from race to race.

super. :thumbsup:

mark christopher

03-03-2008, 06:18 PM

from what I understand, if you intend to race regionals, you will not be able to score points in off-road.
all ways one...........................................

you did read his post?

RogerM

03-03-2008, 06:35 PM

all ways one...........................................

you did read his post?

In fairness to DCM it was his response which prompted my edit as I'd obviously not made myself clear enough!!!

Cockerill

03-03-2008, 06:37 PM

Lipo all the way, there's no reason not to prefer it. As far as I can see there is no disadvantage to running it. You can use one pack all day and gives a more relaxed days racing.

I think they could be run along side NiMH in off-road, as they offer no performance advantage in this class. The cells are light weight, but both would be run to the same weight limits. The performance advantage makes no difference as off-road cars can easily be over-powered. Unless you are running the quickest motors you can buy and still want more power, there is no reason to complain about any performance advantage.

It would be interesting to know why people have voted NiMH as their preference? Or if anyone knows of a disadvantage of running Lipo, or Lipo/NiMH alongside each other?

Slimboyfat

03-03-2008, 06:56 PM

I can see Lipo as the future, but i voted undecided as I have yet to try them. Nimh have been great for the sport but im in the boat where something has to be tried and tested for perhaps a season by those with the means to not to be bothered if something goes wrong.....Unlike me.

Danny McGee

03-03-2008, 07:03 PM

As said before LIPO allll the way. I agree with Tom C. We've both tried them and neither of us can really tell any difference. Its just much less hassle.

Bring them on

:D

DCM

03-03-2008, 07:10 PM

all ways one...........................................

you did read his post?

Whats your problem Mark, was purely pointing out a plain fact, as plain as the nose on your face. I voted undecided, as my club indoors don't allow them as yet, and regionals are out with Lipo, so until I find a venue to race them, I am undecided.

So wind your freaking lipo neck in lol :-)

bigred5765

03-03-2008, 07:11 PM

lipo

mark christopher

03-03-2008, 07:15 PM

In fairness to DCM it was his response which prompted my edit as I'd obviously not made myself clear enough!!!
ah ok i only read your edited post!

mark christopher

03-03-2008, 07:17 PM

Whats your problem Mark, was purely pointing out a plain fact, as plain as the nose on your face. I voted undecided, as my club indoors don't allow them as yet, and regionals are out with Lipo, so until I find a venue to race them, I am undecided.

So wind your freaking lipo neck in lol :-)

not a lipo neck it was the fact he had put forget any serries or rules etc, if you could would you, grranted the post was different before you replied to when i did

Mark

Chrislong

03-03-2008, 07:34 PM

Lipo!!! :thumbsup:
As stated by Tom, plus it makes the hobby far more enjoyable in that there is less 'wisdom' required in NIMH voodoo rubbish keeping them feeling good for more than half a dozen charges, so any newby, oldby or donkey can suss them out.

As for the rules. I emailed Charlie Fraser about proposing them and got a great answer (thanks Charlie), which i will copy and paste below:

Hi Chris.

Thanks for your mail re Lipo adoption - no proposals in this regard have been received for the 2008 AGM. PW has just writen out a clarification to Regional Reps as to why they can NOT be used in regional events in 2008 - Stu Evans will have this. From this it is clear that "Electric Board" Rules 3.1 will need alteration to enable use of Lipo cells in 2009 as currently only NICD and NIMH cells are mentioned as being allowed.

The Electric Board deals for all Electric Sections so the board will be watching closely the "support" TC national class running Lipo in 2008 to learn as much as possible, therby enabling appropriate EB rule changes when and if required. In this regard the "safety" implications of adopting this product will be thoroughly investigated.

Turning to 1/10th Off-Road, like any other electric section, we can adopt or otherwise any power source (allowed by the EB) by voting it in at our AGM. So a long answer to your question is that a simple rule change proposal for our section AGM as you outline would be a good place to start ( I believe the EB works for the Electric sections so the EB rule change can be put in place retrospectively, driven by those electric sections who have voted at their AGM to adopt Lipo power in 2009).

I believe the above discribes the way change happens, and look forward to receiving a rule change proposal from you at the appropriate time. Lets hope by that time we have enjoyed a really good season.

Regards

Charlie Fraser

Sec. BRCA 1/10th Off-Road Section.

mobile chicane

03-03-2008, 08:32 PM

lipo, easy to use not as stroppy as cells and last longer if looked after properley.

the prices are coming down and with 2 packs (£50 ea) you can run a days racing no problems.

I'm undecided on lipo sacks as they dont allow you observe the pack when its being charged.

20 yrs time we'll be having this thread about micro cold fusion packs :woot:

paulc

03-03-2008, 09:14 PM

voted nimh only because lipo won't fit in an s4 :(

AmiSMB

03-03-2008, 09:17 PM

I have been using Li-Poly cells and was one of the early adopters of these cells when I was running my Ikarus Piccollo helicopter. We started with Taradan cells and ripping cells from mobile phones.

Then came the early Kokham cells which could not really deliver much current and you had to try and solder directly to the tags which required special solder and was really hard to do, thankfully they then started to make them with a PCB. I have never had any problems with these types of cells in approx 7 years of use. The only time I ruined packs was when I took them too low in voltage whilst flying but apart from some expansion there was no massive explosion or anything else.

The new li poly cells that I now own for the cars and helicopters all are very stable and I really hate the horror stories that you hear regarding these type of cells as I feel that if you take care of your cells and make sure you adhere to the precautions then you should never have a problem. I think this really shows as for years we have been abusing NiCad and NiMH cells by using very high fast charging and repeaking currents way over 1C so much so that we are now seeing exploding cells.

I am looking forward to the BRCA EB looking into Lipo for 2009 as it really does make the hobby easier as I can see that all this matching, equalising can be off putting the beginners and it can also put them off when they cannot afford decent batteries to be as competetive as others.

chris_dono

03-03-2008, 09:22 PM

The Electric Board deals for all Electric Sections so the board will be watching closely the "support" TC national class running Lipo in 2008 to learn as much as possible, therby enabling appropriate EB rule changes when and if required. In this regard the "safety" implications of adopting this product will be thoroughly investigated.

Not sure I understand this ? is he saying the "support" class is the pro-stock class ?

Anyway, that aside, Lipo all the way for me !

Chris

sparrow.2

03-03-2008, 09:54 PM

Lipo all the way!

A friend lent me his two 5000mAh lipos for an indoor race and i really liked the power delivery, the weight advantage which let me put weight where I wanted it and the fact they were cold after the run.

Charging them was a piece of cake as well with a balancer. No hassle getting them full as I could just top them up and in 7 minute heats I only consumed about 2200mAh. No discharging, no 0V cells to worry about and no worries of them going bang in a big way.

A bit miffed we can't run them at nationals here in Germany... Belgium and Holland are a bit more open to the subject unless I misunderstood something.

Chrislong

03-03-2008, 09:55 PM

Not sure I understand this ? is he saying the "support" class is the pro-stock class ?

Anyway, that aside, Lipo all the way for me !

Chris

I think what he means is that the Electric Board (aka.The Electric Section of BRCA), will be watching what support Lipo receives from the drivers and how it performs. As TC nationals in 2008 allow Lipo & Cells to run side by side - and so we can observe. So if all goes pear shaped, Lipo-no no for 2009.

Col

03-03-2008, 10:32 PM

MattW

03-03-2008, 11:14 PM

I've voted undecided, and i'll tell you why.

At the moment, LiPo hasn't been used in any "competative" race series, and you could argue that this isn't going to change in 2008 - because yes technically the touring car pro stock series is considdered "the support".

However, i have this view that because of this - there would seem to have been little/no development. Many People are using their Orion platignm packs (one of the first to be released i believe) and they are competative and similar in running to anything on the market. Someone correct me if i'm wrong.

Anyway, i believe that as soon as they are allowed in a "premier" class - we will see an upward development path the like of which we have never seen before.

Anyone remember the first NiMh cells?? We were told that NiMh was much more stable than NiCad, there was no need to discharge, no need to equalise, be much easier for racers - the end of our worries. Any of this sound familar?? How does that compare to where we are with NiMh now?? - in the space of 7 ish years (could be out on time).

So i'll hold my hands up to being very cynical!!! :eh?:

I'd kind of quite like it if i was proved wrong, because that would mean tha tLiPo had solved all our problems and things were much easier.........we'll see i guess.

ashleyb4

03-03-2008, 11:30 PM

where's the nicad option lol

I voted Nimh its not that im anti lipo i just havent tried it yet so i cant really comment.

A

Cockerill

03-03-2008, 11:40 PM

where's the nicad option lol

I voted Nimh its not that im anti lipo i just havent tried it yet so i cant really comment.

A

But by voting you have commented Ash, surely if you have no experience of one option then undecided would be best?

Matt, I see where you are coming from and agree we were sold NiMH as the end of all our problems. Lipo are starting to become more common in big races in the US so we should see some Lipo development soon, and with big companies releasing Lipo's there will become a competitive market for them.

Will this development effect off-road? I believe that off-road cars can be so over-powered with Lipo packs that we don't need the latest and greatest packs. With the power we have now we are limting it with slipper clutches. Using Lipo will just give a more relaxed days racing IMO. Obviously not everyone will agree with me.

glypo

03-03-2008, 11:48 PM

LiPo has solved all of our problems. It's just we can't run LiPo to prove it. LiPo, and indeed the other Lithium technologies, are by no means new, I have been using them in aircraft for years now. And the RC aircraft market is factors times bigger then the car market, so RC cars running them won't push the technology along any faster. And we all have Lithium cells in our laptops and mobile phones.

£40 got me a balancing charger capable of up to 5 cell (18.5V) and that's the only cost people will incur. No discharging trays and all that rubbish you need with NiCad and NiMH. There is NO memory effect, no need to discharge them etc. NiMH is an odd technology, as we weren't lied to. You don't need to discharge NiMH, and the cell life remains the same. Similarly there is no memory effect in NiMH either. People interpreted this as you will still get maximum performance without cycling the cells, which is not the case as we all know. So just because people misunderstood the meaning behind the marketing of NiMH technology doesn't mean that LiPo will suddenly get worse with improvements in technology. In fact that's kind of an oxymoron.

So yes Matt, you are being too cynical lol! Embrace the LiPo goodness :D

ashleyb4

03-03-2008, 11:48 PM

well at the moment as i havent tried lipo i preffer nimhlol

A

mark christopher

03-03-2008, 11:49 PM

DCM

04-03-2008, 12:40 AM

Not sure I understand this ? is he saying the "support" class is the pro-stock class ?

Anyway, that aside, Lipo all the way for me !

Chris

Super stock is a support class for the BRCA National (modified). And as for the class, the top guys will all be running brushless and Lipo, as there is an advantage. simple as.

regards to electric flight and the use of LiPo, I believe the BMFA has brought in specific regulations regarding the use of and charging of LiPo, they also see them as potentialy MORE hazardous due to the flamability of the cell over Nicd and NiMH.

I think LiPo will be the future, but there is so much non-lipo equipment out there, it is managing that issue that poses the biggest issue to me, not the current racer who has new chargers and esc's that are LiPo enabled. This is why I am still undecided on it, I like the idea, but the though of seeing them being used incorrectly kinda un-nerves me about it.

Chrislong

04-03-2008, 08:52 AM

I didn't read it that way!
What I thought it meant was that TC modified is the main event and TC stock (or whatever it's called) is the support class - just like F1 being the main event and TOCA touring cars being support to them

p.s. voted lipo

Guys guys guys - go and read Charlies email I pasted - there is no mention of stock, super stock, he just mentions TC nationals and "support". Your all running away with what Chris Dono said without reading Charlies email and digesting it.. LOL..

Has anyone had a set of Lipo cells go bang? Lets hear about it. I keep hearing about the "Could happen" but no actuals.

RogerM

04-03-2008, 09:51 AM

Thanks Chris ...... that is the sort of thing I wanted to hear about ... positive and negative experiences .. real experiences.

I am personally very unsure about the LiPo revolution everybody is predicting, not if it will happen but if it should.

The one major upside of course is that if you want to run a perfectly balanced (side-side) 4wd car your going to have to run a car that can have a stick type Lipo down one side as the weight of a Lipo (from TrackPowers website) is almost identical to the electrical kit you would have on the other side of the chassis.

I can only think of two 4wds that can do that out of the box, Durga or ZX5-SP ...... :D

What will the Atomic boys do? Can LiPos fit under the centre shaft on the Durango inspired cars?

All interesting stuff.

Chris Doughty

04-03-2008, 10:08 AM

Roger, I think the idea of allowing LiPo does not mean dis-allowing NiMh.

and the worksop series has proved that they can run side-by-side in off-road quite easily.

super__dan

04-03-2008, 10:15 AM

Actually with minimal modding, a stick pack fits an X5 too ;)

RogerM

04-03-2008, 10:31 AM

Roger, I think the idea of allowing LiPo does not mean dis-allowing NiMh.

and the worksop series has proved that they can run side-by-side in off-road quite easily.

I appreciate that Chris ....... just asking questions .....

Guess your answer would be to stay "Atomized" and run NiMhs then .... good choice IMHO .. ;)

AmiSMB

04-03-2008, 10:38 AM

The only time where I have heard of Li-Poly explosive accidents is usually when the settings on the charger have not been set correctly i.e. Still in NiCad or NiMH mode, cell count incorrect, charging higher than 1C.

c0sie

04-03-2008, 10:42 AM

I think LiPo should be used where ever possible.
With regards to the LiPo's being used incorrectly point from above...how many times have you sat next to a racer in the pits who's been charging his IB4200's at 6A? That can be labelled as 'incorrect' use as much as someone attempting to charge a LiPo off a NiMh charger.
I think there are enough scare stories out there that anyone who actually buys a LiPo pack will know well enough to research the products and correct operating methods.

dancoog

04-03-2008, 11:02 AM

Lipos are becoming the norm in US racing and apear to be a positive change.
As a racer returning from 10 years off I can say the outlay for 4+packs of cells versus 1 - 2 packs of Lips is a no brains call.

When you take into account the cost of a novak or much more discharge tray for cells the price has just hit the roof!!

given the choice right now I would take up Lipo and laugh at the fact that I haven't just spent £400 not counting my top level charger..

If you have two packs strapped into two cars (2wd and 4wd) you could even run two classes in the same day at a club race. (they do in the US)

If you think about that it just makes sense!

Cockerill

04-03-2008, 12:48 PM

Regarding them been dangerous. The rules Roar have enforced for the packs to pass there tests are pretty strict as far as I can tell, this includes over-charging them to see what happens and a drop test. With these tests in place only packs that will be legal will be the safer ones. Most have seen what happens when a NiMH is over-charged and its not particularly safe :o

Regarding the NiMH/Lipo performance debate, I cannot honeslty see a performance disadvantage to running NiMH as I feel any off-road car can be over-powered as it is, unless you are currently running the quickest motors you can buy and still wnat more power you have no reason to complain on this front. Therefore cars that can only run NiMH will not have a disadvantage and a new car can be properly developed to allow the use of Lipo or both cells.

danDanEFC

04-03-2008, 01:15 PM

I voted Lipo

I only started racing last year and I have moved from the old borrowed nicd/nimh cells I was using and upgraded to Lipo.

It is much easier for me to understand Lipo than it was for me to get my head round nimh, balancing, matching and discharging.

I will run in the regionals and I am happy not to score any points, probably wouldnt get a F4 anyway :-).

I also understand it must be differcult for people, who are more serious racers than me, who have invetsed in cells, chargers and dischargers for Nimh to spend more money on 'the next big thing'

chris_dono

04-03-2008, 01:42 PM

chris_dono

04-03-2008, 01:48 PM

Guys guys guys - go and read Charlies email I pasted - there is no mention of stock, super stock, he just mentions TC nationals and "support". Your all running away with what Chris Dono said without reading Charlies email and digesting it.. LOL..

Has anyone had a set of Lipo cells go bang? Lets hear about it. I keep hearing about the "Could happen" but no actuals.

Seems i created a stir here :eh?:

I simply wanted to know if the "support" class that was being referred to was indeed the super stock class that's new for this year :thumbsup:

As for cells going bang...
I've personally seen three sets of NimH go in the past year, and heard of another 5 or so.
I've heard on one set of lipo cells that went on fire because a NimH set of cells went bang inside a battery box where the Lipo was, not because of any other reason.

running a single lipo pack in my TC for almost a year, I've had no issues with it at all, a couple of times it's even come out of the car as the battery tape broke and it was dragged along the ground for a bit before I realised.

I can't recommend Lipo enough to people !

craigosh

04-03-2008, 01:50 PM

I've been running Lipo nearly a year now and the only problems i've had was a weird one with a Nosram brushless system. The car would just cut out under power, wasn't the lipo cutoff kicking in, so swapped the motor to a Novak i had and everything was fine!!! Nosram Motor just went in the BJ4 with the nimhs.

Other than that never a problem. The pack has always come off cold at the end of a heat but always gets ten mins to cool down before i put it back on charge.

Personally i cant see why we aren't all using them yet, I've seen them used in consumer electronics for the past 10 years ( yes i know they wont be under as much load, but it shows that the technology aint new!) and saw them in planes at least 3 years ago, so why are we so behind!!??!!

johnboy

04-03-2008, 04:35 PM

i think lipo is the way ahead for racing the costs are cheaper they are alot better to maintain. iam going to use them why spend £250 plus on 6 packs of nimh cells when i could get a lipo battery , charger and balancer for roughly £150.

chris_dono

04-03-2008, 04:52 PM

I've been running Lipo nearly a year now and the only problems i've had was a weird one with a Nosram brushless system. The car would just cut out under power

Was that with a GTB speedo ? A couple of mates have had issues with that combo as well.

MattW

04-03-2008, 09:25 PM

Tom C - from a purely off rd perspective, maybe you're right actually, in that any improvement of cells probably doesn't matter. I'm kind of thinking "Electric racing" as a whole, rather than just off rd - which i guess was actually the question.

Mark C - with the greatest deal of respect, no, the worksop series is nowhere near as competitive as a national championship for example.

From a safety perspective, i am actually not against LiPo. I have this view (and it's maybe a strange view) that a fire (potential LiPo failure) is possibly easier to contain, and potentially less dangerous than an explosion (potential NiMh failure). Although I'm not sure i feel in any way comfortable with the though of fire inside a tent, that is pitched in a dry grass field with a load of other tents.

My safety concern does come when people "discover" what they believe to be a method to improve performance with charging methods. Again, something that doesn't matter until you get into a competitive environment, and again something that you could argue doesn't bring such an "advantage" to off rd.

mark christopher

05-03-2008, 09:57 PM

Mark C - with the greatest deal of respect, no, the worksop series is nowhere near as competitive as a national championship for example.

not what you said tho matt
At the moment, LiPo hasn't been used in any "competative" race series, and you could argue that this isn't going to change in 2008 - because yes technically the touring car pro stock series is considdered "the support".

worksop is a competative race series!
and we will see things in 2008, as outside the uk countries have alloed lipo usage

SlowOne

06-03-2008, 07:04 PM

Some support here for MattW - this is the start of an expensive and rapid development phase that is going to cost a lot of money for drivers. As Matt said, a few years ago we were told NiMh was the saviour, and we would be able to charge, race and charge again with no worries - until along came IB with a desire to push the envelope and claim market share...

Read the ROAR rules - only charging in a LiPo sack allowed, only a fixed cut-off voltage allowed, etc, etc. So what happens when someone ups their cut-off from 8.44v to 8.54v because they have a box, full of new batteries, from their sponsor? And, we haven't started with the charging/discharging regimes that will inevitably come out to increase performance.

I get that you don't need all that power in Off-Road, but that puts your class in a minority of one. Everyone else can take more volts at least, and some can take more capacity too.

Let's remember the BL promotors - how it was zero maintenance, how it would level the playing field, how it was cheaper because you only needed one motor and there was no maintenance costs, how it would be easier because we had no brush and spring tuning, how... And now, I don't know anyone who doesn't have at least three motors in their box, who doesn't take them apart to clean them because the dirt gets in the sensors, who hasn't got a couple of rotors to tune to a track, who...

Competition improves the breed, and no manufacturer is going to sit back and let LiPo (or BL) rest. BL (in 12th anyway) has got to the point where we all know what works, so I've dipped a toe in the water and bought mine. It's £80 cheaper than if I'd bought it two years ago, it's developed so that it's much more driveable, and it's the standard combo everyone else has found works.

LiPo is going to go the same way, so knock yourselves out, guys. Once it settles down a bit I might have a dabble if it is of any advantage. But your starry-eyed view of how wonderful it is I, like Matt, don't think is a reflection of reality. I watch with interest... :)

mark christopher

06-03-2008, 08:59 PM

Some support here for MattW - this is the start of an expensive and rapid development phase that is going to cost a lot of money for drivers. As Matt said, a few years ago we were told NiMh was the saviour, and we would be able to charge, race and charge again with no worries - until along came IB with a desire to push the envelope and claim market share...

Read the ROAR rules - only charging in a LiPo sack allowed, only a fixed cut-off voltage allowed, etc, etc. So what happens when someone ups their cut-off from 8.44v to 8.54v because they have a box, full of new batteries, from their sponsor? And, we haven't started with the charging/discharging regimes that will inevitably come out to increase performance.

:)

how can you say that?

1/ you have not used em
2/ they have been used in planes for years, its NOT new technology! we have them now, the development has been done by the plane guys, bellieve it or not they use them more harsly than we do, they need max power out of them, and they have found no increase in altering charge settings etc
3/ the chargers are set at 8.4 and are non adjustable
4/ you gain nothing at all from discharging them prior to charging, again ask a top plane pilot
5/ i have a box of packs, i dont dick with settings as there is nothing to gain, simply top up and go

the chemistry of the cells is 100% different from nimh (which we (racers) were gunie pigs in thier develpoment) its been tried and tested and thier simply is no benift

some of my packs are out in the field with some top level uk drivers, one has not ben balance for over 6 months, the other has, these two drivers have swapped packs and can not tell the diference in them
6/ racers who bought the original orion packs what 2 years ago now? have the same pack thats sold now
i fully apreciate you have your point of view, but at some stage you have to believe what your told, pretty much as when your mum told you that the colour black was black, you believed it

DaveG28

06-03-2008, 09:53 PM

Ok, well I am not an expert on this but some people here are so maybe they can answer some questions! Firstly though, I will be voting LIPO, simply because I:
1. prefer a fire to a bullet (ie what happens when each type goes wrong)
2. Like the idea of leaving one pack in all day and just topping up
3. Think they seem easier to use, eg simple one charging method etc.
4. They don't seem as sensitive as nimh, I have both types and the LIPO's seem to always be good, nimhnot so consistent (for me anyway)

However, a couple of things are confusing me:

1. If we're all so happy with the power in off road as it is, why do I get the distinct impression the top guys still get top cells? If they were quick enough everyone would have bought any old pack of cells wouldn't they?

2. LIPO is quicker, my 2wd is a different animal with LIPO. I think it is something worth considering that it will create more cost etc as everyone moves over to LIPO to keep up.

3. If they don't need balancing, why are people selling balancers?? Even Orion don't seem really clear on this point! :confused:

4. if all LIPO is equal and there won;t be a charge for more and more performance, wouldn't we all be just buying the cheapest LIPO right now? If there's no performance changes, how come some have 15C, some 20C etc!?

I am not trying to be rude to anyone (Mark seems very pro LIPO so I guess this comment is for him! :D), I am just genuinely interested in whether LIPO really is this nice easy thing where we won't all be chasing more performance etc.

Dave

Chrislong

06-03-2008, 10:57 PM

1. If we're all so happy with the power in off road as it is, why do I get the distinct impression the top guys still get top cells? If they were quick enough everyone would have bought any old pack of cells wouldn't they?

I don't consider this true, far from it infact. Ask anyone who you consider a top guy, and he may be getting his cells supplied - but they are not picked ones. In some instances the sponsors send out the 'Economy' packs to the drivers, and not even the top level off the shelf pack which any customer could buy!....

Go back to the days of Nicads, and I still believe then that cells were chosen, and I have heard other stories too. But with todays Nimhs, when the top brands match them could be weeks before they're taken off the shelf (for team driver or to be sold to retailer), and by that time the cells have deteriorated.... just look how fast IB4200's go off.

What the only difference may be, is that the top guys will be replacing there packs more often - so are driving with packs available to all, but with less use/deterioration in them.

Chris

Chrislong

06-03-2008, 11:03 PM

On the Lipo subject, I will not be running the top level pack in 2wd. Granted, it will be 25C but I have chosen to use 3000mah version so the amp draw is less than the 25C 4900mah... its too late to do the sums...

But the only thing I have heard, is with tourers running 5 cells in modified to slow them down, and now with more and more top level guys running 5 cells in 2wd off road; eventually, will this be the norm for all classes including 4wd? (and rule change for 6v packs rather than 7.2v)? Nobody knows what the future jolds, but if that is the case, then where does it leave Lipo - will they be able to develop 6v packs? I sure hope so as other than this possibility, Lipo as a technology is prooving to be far easier and user friendly compared to cells.

I did show a lot of doubt for Lipo in its early stages, but now I have had chance to use them I have changed my mind. I am continueing to run and learn about them, but as it stands with the experience I have had so far, there is no comparison. So I will continue to use them at club events/Belgium GP and while gaining experience, prooving them, its making racing a whole amount easier (and my NIMHs will stay new for nationals all year!!!)

DaveG28

06-03-2008, 11:09 PM

I don't consider this true, far from it infact. Ask anyone who you consider a top guy, and he may be getting his cells supplied - but they are not picked ones. In some instances the sponsors send out the 'Economy' packs to the drivers, and not even the top level off the shelf pack which any customer could buy!....

Go back to the days of Nicads, and I still believe then that cells were chosen, and I have heard other stories too. But with todays Nimhs, when the top brands match them could be weeks before they're taken off the shelf (for team driver or to be sold to retailer), and by that time the cells have deteriorated.... just look how fast IB4200's go off.

What the only difference may be, is that the top guys will be replacing there packs more often - so are driving with packs available to all, but with less use/deterioration in them.

Chris

I am sure you know more than me on what cells they use, but if performance was not key they wouldn;t need to replace them so often would they? Surely we don't equalise/discharge etc just to avoid them blowing up, we do it so the cells are better!?

Having said that, if this is all true I can save some money by just getting sport packs instead of top spec :thumbsup:

Chrislong

06-03-2008, 11:19 PM

I am sure you know more than me on what cells they use, but if performance was not key they wouldn;t need to replace them so often would they? Surely we don't equalise/discharge etc just to avoid them blowing up, we do it so the cells are better!?

Having said that, if this is all true I can save some money by just getting sport packs instead of top spec :thumbsup:

Hi Dave,
Its not so much about performance but about consistency - as after a few months, pack 1 may have gone soft, pack 2 still powerful, pack 3 has a cell down so retired, pack 4 still powerfl, pack 5 powerful for 2mins then goes off. Which means its hard to gauge how the car will be in the next run. Whereas with regular new cells, the car will be same each run - and then we control the power by choosing sensible motors. Such as Novak Light range, and 6.5 rather than 5.5.

if it was about performance, then we'd be running 4.5's, but we are not. Those who do tend to be slower over a lap as the car is faster than the thumbs, and faster than the track can allow. They just get to the scene of an accident quicker :lol:

Two years ago, with a T4, I ran 27T stock around Southport and it was boring. So for the next run I put an 8x2 in, and it was wild, backed the slipper off and I was a lap slower - I continued all day with the 8x2 and my fastest run remained my 27T run.... this is an extremem example, but its just the same with 2wd & 4wd. We don't need the power available to us, we just need consistency in our packs.

DaveG28

06-03-2008, 11:20 PM

Ooh, now that I can see, as I said above its one of the advantages I see in LIPO is consistency, I find my nimh an absolute bugger for changing power run to run!!

Chrislong

07-03-2008, 08:33 AM

Yes ofcause, it does help. But I am talking from my own perspective, and could be bollox. :lol:

I am hoping the new breed of Nimhs is back to how we expect Nimhs to perform.

hardrider

07-03-2008, 09:47 AM

I'm all for lipo! Runtime and power.
I took a leap of faith and tried them. Now I'm hooked!
(But I do have a few nimhs for those races which do not allow lipo)

Lipos do not require much maintenance. No need for fancy and expensive, premium labelled chargers and dischargers to get the most out of my batteries.
Pack deteorioration. Nimhs' performance does deteoriorate quite rapidly as compared to my lipos.

Despite the pros above, there are some cons.
Charge times are rather long. About 100mins a pack!
Packs are prone to damage if you do not know what you're doing...
Newer chargers prevent overcharigng.
Low voltage cut off devices prevent over discharging.
Wrong gearing leads to overamping, which leads to pack damage.
I reckon overamping will be the new most common reason for lipo pack damage.