rumours rumours

[mobile chicane]

Heard a roumour today that the brca are concidering making 10th off road 5 cell and that 7.4 v lipos wont be allowed ( unless of course you devise some kind of restrictor circuit ?)

aparently it was in radio race car although I haven seen it myself.



getting a bit miffed though as I've got one of the brca aproved lipos and now I may not be able to use it at even club level if the decisaion is made to run 5 cell.

:mad:

[spenner]

It won't be for this year, and i always thought it was the drivers that has to submit the proposal ie.. for lipos etc.

[Cockerill]

As far as I'm aware it is us, the racers, that make/change the rules. I don't think the BRCA can just change a rule as major as this without it been proposed and voted on at the AGM.

[Chrislong]

Many Touring Car organisations have spent the last two years, trying to slow the cars in an effort to reduce the 'melt-downs' and breakages.
In most International events, only modified motors are used. For this Class in Touring Cars: BRCA, Japan and all EFRA events use five cells. It could even be that Off-Road go to five cell in the future to keep cell packs the same in the 1/10th Electric Classes. Certainly we know it works in 2WD and I suspect 4WD would also be OK.

So where does the LiPo cell fit into these structures?? There is a possibility/rumour of 3v Lipo which could well mean 5 cell maximum / Lipo can run together, if allowed etc....

But then there is the new issue of the 5 cells packs being used/abused even harder, and so pack deterioration is increased. Id also expect the issue of "The team drivers get better packs" coming up again, which would be a shame.

In my opinion we should not go to 5 cell racing. Right now we have reliable cells (post IB4200's), and a level playing field in that anyone has the ability to make there own car go far faster than they require and last 5 minutes easily. So now each of us are making our own cars go as fast as our ability and conditions allow; granted, some go faster and crash more, but im sure we all have at times... although my opinion is open for change, and I'll listen to the pro's and con's before I make any further judgement.

The rules are proposed by the racers at the AGM, and have to be discussed and seconded to be accepted. So if anyone feels strongly about 5 cells and proposes it, there is a good chance of it being allowed. Equally if anyone attends and opposes this, then it may not get accepted. Its all about who wants what and which has more votes.

There may be a number of people who want 5 cell maximum, and many more than that who don't want it. But Human nature will mean those that want the change strongly enough will be at the AGM, whereas those of us who don't want the rule won't be at the AGM & we'll all think "Somebody else will oppose it". So guys, lets gauge the support here and get behind the vote rather than miss the AGM, get a rule which the majority doesn't want (but the majority stayed home) and complain about the result afterwards. that'd be a shame.

Chris

[Lee]

It really would make no difference at all to our class, if we lost a cell then we would just drop a motor, ie from 5.5 to 4.5, we wont struggle for run time as it doesn`t actually effect it that much. But we will be working the cells harder.

Mr BRCA, dont try and fix it if it isnt broken:thumbdown:

[RogerM]

I agree with every word Chris says here (except the 3V lipo .... I know nothing about htat so can't comment)

[ben]

Me and rich lowe tried 5 cells at a york club night and tbh the only thing that changed was the smoother power input it gave. I still had pretty much the same run time. But if we went to 5 cells it sounds a silly thing but wouldnt all of the cell slots in the chassis be too long lol. :lol:

[albertobdq]

Hi guys, please notice that using 6v cells suffer a lot more and is life is reduced.

[mark christopher]

It really would make no difference at all to our class, if we lost a cell then we would just drop a motor, ie from 5.5 to 4.5, we wont struggle for run time as it doesn`t actually effect it that much. But we will be working the cells harder.

Mr BRCA, dont try and fix it if it isnt broken:thumbdown:
actually it does
since moving to 5 cell, even the top TC drivers (olly jeffries, and world champ and moore can dump, on new fresh cells!
take a cell away and the amp draw goes up giving less duration and life ( please note i am refering to current TC cars, BUT they are exeriencing this and the reality is all the same)
lee last line, spot on, apart from allowing lipo as BRCA TC have

I agree with every word Chris says here (except the 3V lipo .... I know nothing about htat so can't comment)

same here but i feel 5 cell is a wrong move, it will make it more of a battery war, pumping up costs to compete at the top, yup im pro lipo but joe public can buy exactly the same Cell im supplied by trakpower, ask chris and tom what they think to old/used lipo's (they have a pack each of mine which are over a year old and been used allot, both will tell you there ok and as good as new) that will not be the case with 5 cell packs
i like ease of use, no messing around and best of all good life and performance

ive not heard of 3 volt lipo either?

Hi guys, please notice that using 6v cells suffer a lot more and is life is reduced.

fully agree

[mark christopher]

the other thing to remember is, how many cars are designed round 6 cells, in saddle or 4x2?

all the TC's use a stick pack layout (b4 style) so removing a cell is relativly easy, wont altering a saddle car to 3x2 cause a new design or layout to keep a balance?, more manufature costs, passed to end user ie US

[Lee]

Mark, they only started using silly winds last year though, the year before i think 4.5 was about as wild as they got, now they use 2,5 etc.

I gree with what your saying, i see no benefit in losing a cell in off road

[Chrislong]

I heard 3v Lipo wasn't possible, then I heard "There are suggestions of a new cell technology of 3.0V" from a guy who's word I have never doubted. So, it may not exist, but it may be something early on in development or at idea stage. It may never happen.

[Chrislong]

I see two benefits which are far outweighed by the negatives.

- reduction in weight, most of our cars are now miles away from the minimum weight. Although it isn't a hugely significant weight saving, its enough to make a difference.

- smoothness of power, it may/maynot be a good thing, I think it would be a good thing in most cases. its debatable.



Here's a new suggestion. How about proposing an adjustment to the minimum weight? Go back 10 years and I was able to get close, with my blade I had to weight it up. But currently, I need to loose between 100-200g per car (depending on tyres) to get close again, and from what I have observed, this is the norm' for the majority now.

[Zedman]

Take a look at full scale racing, lets start with rallying, now consider why they banned the mertro 6r4, the rs200 etc, was it because they were boring to drive, was it spectators yawned as the super cars went by and cheered as the "club" cars finaly came into view ?

NO AND HELL NO, I have seen these cars in action, I will never forget seeing one start an opposite lock before a ninety left on a dirt forest only to have it flick the opposite way and hook through the corner at a speed I thought was totaly immposible, I will never forget it.

I also know it wasnt the power of the car that made it possible, it was the driver using that power.

The reason they banned them was to make it safer for the driver in the car !!! we dont have drivers in our cars !!!

On to Formula 1, can anyone argue despite being at the forefront of technology they are the most boring races ever to watch, no overtaking no dicing, sigh, but yes they are safe for the drivers.

DONT let our sport go that way, keep it fast keep it powerfull, keep it wild, let the driver make the differance, sure put a weight limit on to make it even BUT PLEASE keep it fast furious and exciting )

Heavan forbid that you crash/roll/spin/power slide/powersteer/your RC car when you could trundle round the track in an orderly fashion relying on a forced pit stop to decide the outcome of the race

[RogerM]

Zedman .. when was teh last time you watched F1???

I still get up at daft AM to watch qualifying let alone the races!!!!

[mark christopher]

Mark, they only started using silly winds last year though, the year before i think 4.5 was about as wild as they got, now they use 2,5 etc.

I gree with what your saying, i see no benefit in losing a cell in off road
true but 5 cell was only legal for 2008, year before was 6 cell they had 3.5 last year in 5 cell

I heard 3v Lipo wasn't possible, then I heard "There are suggestions of a new cell technology of 3.0V" from a guy who's word I have never doubted. So, it may not exist, but it may be something early on in development or at idea stage. It may never happen.
could be a new cell technology, there is a 3volt cell buts its no good for rc in its current state and im sure its not lipo
I see two benefits which are far outweighed by the negatives.

- reduction in weight, most of our cars are now miles away from the minimum weight. Although it isn't a hugely significant weight saving, its enough to make a difference.

- smoothness of power, it may/maynot be a good thing, I think it would be a good thing in most cases. its debatable.



Here's a new suggestion. How about proposing an adjustment to the minimum weight? Go back 10 years and I was able to get close, with my blade I had to weight it up. But currently, I need to loose between 100-200g per car (depending on tyres) to get close again, and from what I have observed, this is the norm' for the majority now.

chris weigh your car with lipo, my b4 and d4 are under weight, job done!
light cars, good power, cheap cell costs, less maintance for cells, good life, if you want to control speed restrict motor wind, 7,5 for 2wd 5.5 4wd, even better use the throttle as a throttle no on off switch:thumbsup:

Zedman .. when was teh last time you watched F1???

I still get up at daft AM to watch qualifying let alone the races!!!!

still boring tho, TC or bikes to watch is far better

[Chrislong]

Lipo is the future. :thumbsup: Lets get this proposed at AGM and close the door on this 5 cell maximum possibility.

Limiting brushless AND brushed winds is a good suggestion. But with the brushless rating being different between the brands, it needs to be on a uniform rating accross the brands, such as the true KV figure. Something equivalent to 10 turn brushless i recon.

Another tin of worms when it comes to scrutineering. All it would take is a label and can cheat the rules. Although testing of brushless would be easy - put 1volt through and measure the revs.

Id like it to stay as it is, with the addition of hardcased Lipo and the upper voltage limit allowed made 7.4v.

I don't find F1 interesting, not even the highlights unless there are lots of crashes. WRC is far better to watch.

Chris

[Lee]

There is no reason to limit anything in off road, we currently can go much faster( in a straight line) but we chose not too. I see no gain in limiting anything, it only creates more work for scrutineers and some controversy if someone is faster.

[glypo]

Lipo is the future. :thumbsup: Lets get this proposed at AGM and close the door on this 5 cell maximum possibility.

Sounds very wise to me. Who cares about NiMH when we have fantastic LiPo on the horizon of racing at last. We should all ignore what's going on with on-road, it's a decreasing market, so not wise if off-road takes any leads from them. If LiPo gets alienated before it even gets a chance I will be annoyed.

[albertobdq]

That "3v cells" could be the A123 Li-Fe cells wich gives 3.3v per element. This technology is being tested for some racers ith great results since cells can be charged much quicker and had a longer life even ith high current draws

[terry.sc]

Heard a roumour today that the brca are concidering making 10th off road 5 cell and that 7.4 v lipos wont be allowed
As Jim Spencer is tired of saying - "You are the BRCA". The BRCA isn't a secret organisation that decides what rules to impose on the drivers, the rules are chosen and proposed by all the members then those members attending the AGM vote on which rules they want to keep and which rules to reject.

If someone proposes 5 cells and the majority vote it in then you'll be racing 5 cell next year. Alternatively if someone proposes 10 cells or 3s lipo and the majority vote it in, again that is what you'll be racing. It's entirely down to the members, not the committee.
Look at the bikes, they have been running soft cased lipos for years because the racers wanted it and voted for it. If you want lipos then rather than talk about it in various forums someone should propose it at the AGM and see whether the majority vote for them.

And Lipo is current technology, A123 Li-Ion is the future :lol:

[b4rs]

its all right for you sponsored lot! :lol: us un sponsored sods have buy all our own equipment.
which means a full new set of 5c batteries.
never mind slower cars etc.:yawn:

[Wraggy]

its all right for you sponsored lot! :lol: us un sponsored sods have buy all our own equipment.

and us sponsored Lot ! still have to buy equipment also ....:)

[Lee]

Sponsor:confused:

Whats one of them:confused:

[b4rs]

wraggy, dont you get most of your stuff free? from your sponsors?

[RLGfx]

you'll find very very few drivers who actually get any stuff free, let alone all of it!

[Wraggy]

wraggy, dont you get most of your stuff free? from your sponsors?

i dont get anything Free , i am shop sponsored so i can basically run what equipment i want (which is good) but still pay for everything but with a little discount .

[telboy]

too right. not all the sponsored drivers get stuff for free, just discounts.

My latest order for stuff cost me around £250 and there was only 6 or so items on there and most of them were spares.

[RogerM]

its all right for you sponsored lot! :lol: us un sponsored sods have buy all our own equipment.
which means a full new set of 5c batteries.
never mind slower cars etc.:yawn:

If your that worried a 5 cell pack is just a 6 cell pack with a cell missing ..... disconnecting a cell should be easy enough, even in a stick pack!

[Northy]

too right. not all the sponsored drivers get stuff for free, just discounts.

My latest order for stuff cost me around £250 and there was only 6 or so items on there and most of them were spares.

Small fry :p Mine was £600 :cry:

G

[Chrislong]

I hate spending the money, but when it arrives - its like Christmas!

To save money, I could rebox some new stuff I have lay around and post it to myself. :thumbsup:

[Lee]

thats like mr bean at christmas.

I love getting new toys, but its the face off her indoors when she sees me opening up packages:lol:

[b4rs]

it is ace getting stuff in parcels from the postman. as long as you odnt have to go collect it form the post office:mad: lol.

sorry guys, i thought you sponsored gys got alot of stuff free from your sponsors, as if to show, " look what im winning with!" and then people go buy it. obviously not...

[Chrislong]

sorry guys, i thought you sponsored gys got alot of stuff free from your sponsors, as if to show, " look what im winning with!" and then people go buy it. obviously not...

Nevermind Alex.. your partially right, people do say "look what I am winning with" (sponsorship is about a heck of a lot more than that), but that doesn't mean they are getting anything free.

[Northy]

Bovered? :confused:

G

[mobile chicane]

whoops my typo I heard it had been proposed to the brca.


how do I vote against it seing as I'm a paid up brca member ?

[peetbee]

whoops my typo I heard it had been proposed to the brca.

how do I vote against it seing as I'm a paid up brca member ?
Assuming that it has been proposed, you need to attend the AGM and vote!

[antnee]

Schumacher would need to have another version of the Cat SX too!!

[MattW]

I can't really see 5 cell coming for off rd. There really is no point. For touring car racing, it has worked IMHO (as a touring car racer!), but for off rd, no really point i don't think.

I may try it some time and se how it is. For 2wd, i can't see it making any real difference, you'd just drop the odd wind or so, and all would be well.

[frogger]

Why would anyone still want to race with NIMHs with all the benefits that lipo's bring. :confused: Hopefully sometime soon enough people will wake up to lipo technology, demand will increase and all this 5 cell nonsense will go away. And while we are at it why not increase race times to 10mins! :lol:

[rc10andy]

I have gotta be honest, all this sounds a bit much, after all we are talking about TOY cars here. These cars are toys and we r hardly talking about the F1 championship here. Its a hobby that should be enjoyed not complicated IMO.
Why would the BRCA want to fix something that isnt broken? Just a suggestion to Manufacturer pressure? If you ask me (as a newcomer to RC) the BRCA seem to spoil racing IMO and seem to be grumpy so and so's that just make things hard and cost more!:thumbdown: But i dunno, would racing be non-existent without the BRCA?:confused:

To be honest i shouldnt really comment cos i havent had much racing experience but thats just how it seems from my expeience so far.
Andy

[Chrislong]

Yes, it is toy car racing. but it does need the rules and the racing is as competitive and close as real racing, so it needs the rules.

The thing we are discussing is what rule to go for in 2008. It is us who choose the rules, and its the BRCA who work it, and they work it well, so please don't diss them, they're only a group of fellow hobbyists who are good enough to put the time in to this aside from there careers etc.

[Adam Skelding]

its all right for you sponsored lot! :lol: us un sponsored sods have buy all our own equipment.
which means a full new set of 5c batteries.
never mind slower cars etc.:yawn:

Or you unsolder a cell from your current 6 cell packs and make a 5th pack up out of your 'spare' cells like I did for my touring car exploits.
:thumbsup:

[mark christopher]

go to be honnest, nimh or lipo, why should the car be restricted? the driver should be the restriced item and he/she should be free to choose cells and motor (dont curent rules allow 5 cell anyway? so why enforce it on everyone else?)

please dont make Off road like TC:thumbdown:, lots of rules, not as much atmosphere and all about wringing the last tenth out of the car

i have found buggies to be fun, cheap, rewarding to drive (more down to driver than set up) oh and did i say fun:thumbsup:
also the atmoshere and racers seem allot better as in willing to help/chat etc

take a look at how buggies are growin and TC is shrinking

[peetbee]

If you don't want 5 cells or you do want lipos then make the proposal prior to the next agm and then go and vote for (or against) what you want.
That's how the BRCA sets it's rules.

[mark christopher]

If you don't want 5 cells or you do want lipos then make the proposal prior to the next agm and then go and vote for (or against) what you want.
That's how the BRCA sets it's rules.
i know im a BRCA comittee member ;)

[frogger]

i know im a BRCA comittee member ;)

Awesome, so I assume lipo's would have been proposed? Is there anywhere to see what has been proposed and what hasn't and when is the AGM (assuming it's still due)?

[RogerM]

Carl, the AGM is traditionally around mid October ....... so yes it is still to come in 08 but to set 09 rules.

[frogger]

Carl, the AGM is traditionally around mid October ....... so yes it is still to come in 08 but to set 09 rules.

Thanks Roger!

[SHY]

EFRA
Normally the way this works is that each driver is a member of a club. He/she can suggest a rule change either via the club or directly to the BRCA (at least it's like this in Norway). Std. forms are used. I would guess also BRCA has a AGM before november, where all the clubs in the UK vote over suggestions. Those passed will then be passed on to the EFRA AGM in november. Again std. forms are used. BUT! Suggestions to the EFRA AGM has to be delivered to them early august!!! So often you're one year "behind schedule"... :cry: -and all you can vote over is proposals from other countries, that were delivered to EFRA in time. I also assume BRCA adopt all new EFRA rules (?). If you wanna be "pro active" like Chris points out, you must do this NOW! And make sure BRCA hands in the proposal before august!

All I know is that LiPos were discussed at last years EFRA AGM, and one thought it would most likely be legal 2009 onwards.

It being legal in 1:10 OR in ROAR (USA) now, and working well I think makes this even more likely for EFRA.

5 CELLS
We did this most of the 2007 season in both classes. To get weight down and to reduce power slightly. BUT - my experience says:
-runtime is much shorter, even with quite new batteries
-you need quite new & good batteries to have enough power
I don't think UK would suffer much in any case. But in most european countries 1:10 OR is still quite small. We therefore need it to be a low-cost & fun class in order to make it grow. I'm afraid it would leave out the low-budget racers. We even have guys running 3300 batteries still...

MY SUGGESTION
We don't need any "restrictions" in 1:10 OR as to number of cells, volt etc. You're normally overpowered anyway! It's a "non problem"! IMHO we only need rules now in order to assure that the batteries are safe! So I say give us LiPos or whatever may come, but the governing bodies like EFRA and BRCA must test whether these are safe to use. AND give clear rules as to safe charging and storage etc. In Norway we have already implemented:
-max. 1C charge
-lowest possible mV setting must be used
-re-peaking not allowed

I've been using LiPo in RC airplanes for years, and I simply LOVE them! Together with B/L they're outstanding! I was a bit scared to begin using them, hearing stories about "Darwin Awards" candidates in the US burning down cars and houses... but neither me or anyone I know has had any problems at all!

I charge them and leave them in the "LiPo Sack" (fire safe), then go flying when I have the time or urge to do so... and it doesen't even matter if they've been lying there charged for weeks... still full power and runtime! Rest assure, this is the future (for now)! :thumbsup::woot:

Keep in mind that LiPos have 40% longer effective runtime. Can be "re-filled", does not need to be emptied again. Can be used for several seasons and still be good as new. Inexpensive and so on. AND! The charging method is very simple and hence the chargers are mere giveaways compared to NiMH chargers!

The low weight also puts your car under the min. weight limit without any other fuzz! It's dog's bollocks! :thumbsup:

[stuartw]

i know im a BRCA comittee member ;)

To avoid any confusion and misunderstanding for those who do not know you, your are not a committee member of the 1/0th Off Road Section.

[mark christopher]

To avoid any confusion and misunderstanding for those who do not know you, your are not a committee member of the 1/0th Off Road Section.
yup true, never claimed to be, even so being a BRCA comittee member has the same role no matter what class and we know how the systems work, as BRCA members we also have the right to vote/stand on any section we want to. the only thing that differs are individual section rules, which is why we all get a little book to read

[mark christopher]

Awesome, so I assume lipo's would have been proposed? Is there anywhere to see what has been proposed and what hasn't and when is the AGM (assuming it's still due)?
i doubt they have been as of yet, sections normally put a call out for proposals prior to the AGM, they than have to be published so racers can see whats comming, its then a case of going to the relevent section to vote/discuss what you want to happen, you can also vote in different sections or move between meetings, your not tied to one section.
for 2008 wh have the rules as per handbook.

[Fabs]

actually it does
since moving to 5 cell, even the top TC drivers (olly jeffries, and world champ and moore can dump, on new fresh cells!
take a cell away and the amp draw goes up giving less duration and life ( please note i am refering to current TC cars, BUT they are exeriencing this and the reality is all the same)
lee last line, spot on, apart from allowing lipo as BRCA TC have



Well in off road you'll not be as hard on the cells as we are in TC so I shouldn't think you'll see any issues with battery life. Even if you used a 4.5 instead of a 5.5 you'll still have plenty of runtime so amp draw won't be too bad. With a 4.5 in TC you can gun it for a whole run and still have some runtime left at the end of a run.

[mark christopher]

EFRA
Normally the way this works is that each driver is a member of a club. He/she can suggest a rule change either via the club or directly to the BRCA (at least it's like this in Norway). Std. forms are used. I would guess also BRCA has a AGM before november, where all the clubs in the UK vote over suggestions. Those passed will then be passed on to the EFRA AGM in november. Again std. forms are used. BUT! Suggestions to the EFRA AGM has to be delivered to them early august!!! So often you're one year "behind schedule"... :cry: -and all you can vote over is proposals from other countries, that were delivered to EFRA in time. I also assume BRCA adopt all new EFRA rules (?). If you wanna be "pro active" like Chris points out, you must do this NOW! And make sure BRCA hands in the proposal before august!

All I know is that LiPos were discussed at last years EFRA AGM, and one thought it would most likely be legal 2009 onwards.

It being legal in 1:10 OR in ROAR (USA) now, and working well I think makes this even more likely for EFRA.

5 CELLS
We did this most of the 2007 season in both classes. To get weight down and to reduce power slightly. BUT - my experience says:
-runtime is much shorter, even with quite new batteries
-you need quite new & good batteries to have enough power
I don't think UK would suffer much in any case. But in most european countries 1:10 OR is still quite small. We therefore need it to be a low-cost & fun class in order to make it grow. I'm afraid it would leave out the low-budget racers. We even have guys running 3300 batteries still...

MY SUGGESTION
We don't need any "restrictions" in 1:10 OR as to number of cells, volt etc. You're normally overpowered anyway! It's a "non problem"! IMHO we only need rules now in order to assure that the batteries are safe! So I say give us LiPos or whatever may come, but the governing bodies like EFRA and BRCA must test whether these are safe to use. AND give clear rules as to safe charging and storage etc. In Norway we have already implemented:
-max. 1C charge
-lowest possible mV setting must be used
-re-peaking not allowed

I've been using LiPo in RC airplanes for years, and I simply LOVE them! Together with B/L they're outstanding! I was a bit scared to begin using them, hearing stories about "Darwin Awards" candidates in the US burning down cars and houses... but neither me or anyone I know has had any problems at all!

I charge them and leave them in the "LiPo Sack" (fire safe), then go flying when I have the time or urge to do so... and it doesen't even matter if they've been lying there charged for weeks... still full power and runtime! Rest assure, this is the future (for now)! :thumbsup::woot:

Keep in mind that LiPos have 40% longer effective runtime. Can be "re-filled", does not need to be emptied again. Can be used for several seasons and still be good as new. Inexpensive and so on. AND! The charging method is very simple and hence the chargers are mere giveaways compared to NiMH chargers!

The low weight also puts your car under the min. weight limit without any other fuzz! It's dog's bollocks! :thumbsup:

Well in off road you'll not be as hard on the cells as we are in TC so I shouldn't think you'll see any issues with battery life. Even if you used a 4.5 instead of a 5.5 you'll still have plenty of runtime so amp draw won't be too bad. With a 4.5 in TC you can gun it for a whole run and still have some runtime left at the end of a run.
Fabs have you actually tried it?

[Fabs]

I ran a 4.5 at carpet wars all winter and never dumped whilst gunning it all the way. You'll never use as much power in a buggy... I ran my 4.5 in 6-cell at worksop once and had to back the timing down a lot to be able to drive it... Ran it the week after at the Petit RC race and people were asking me what cells I had that's how quick the car was... They never realised I had a 4.5...

If I'm not mistaken the actual rules state that you can run 5 cells but you need to have the 6th in the car, meaning you're not gaining anything weight wise. A cell is roughly 68g and we've found it to make quite a difference in TC and I believe in buggy it would also. So trying it following the actual rules won't mean anything, since you'll not have any of the benefits of running at lower weight.

I'm not saying it's the way forward, I'm saying it won't be as hard on cells as in TC where we dump a pack with our 3.5s and other silly winds...

[mark christopher]

cheers for clarifying it, thats makes sense

rule for cells reads 25.1 cars will be driven by a maximun of six rechargable cells, which can not be replaced after a race has started.

says nothing about 6 having to be in the car!

[Fabs]

Fair enough, I'm 100% sure at the worlds in italy some drivers (even in the A) used 5-cells but had to put a 6th one in their cars due to the rules, so I thought it would be the same over here.

[terry.sc]

At the Worlds the drivers used 5 cells in the car by fitting an extra connector to the 6 cell packs, rather than building 5 cell specific packs. For example Neil Cragg ran 6 cells with 14 turn motors in qualifying, but changed to 5 cells and 12 turn for the finals. By sticking an extra tube on the battery it saved a lot of messing about reconfiguring everything for 3 races.

Keeping 6 cells in the pack gives you the choice of voltage, keeps the weight the same and makes it easy to fit the battery in the holder made for 6 cells.

[SHY]

I ran a 4.5 at carpet wars all winter and never dumped whilst gunning it all the way. You'll never use as much power in a buggy... I ran my 4.5 in 6-cell at worksop once and had to back the timing down a lot to be able to drive it... Ran it the week after at the Petit RC race and people were asking me what cells I had that's how quick the car was... They never realised I had a 4.5...

If I'm not mistaken the actual rules state that you can run 5 cells but you need to have the 6th in the car, meaning you're not gaining anything weight wise. A cell is roughly 68g and we've found it to make quite a difference in TC and I believe in buggy it would also. So trying it following the actual rules won't mean anything, since you'll not have any of the benefits of running at lower weight.

I'm not saying it's the way forward, I'm saying it won't be as hard on cells as in TC where we dump a pack with our 3.5s and other silly winds...

1) I don't agree, I've tried this and runtime is much less. For us "serious" racers we'll be ok with fresh high-capacity cells. But for Joe Racer a 5 cell rule would be negative. The not so good racers also traditionally try to compensate for lack of skills by running a lower wind motor = double trouble...

2) You're wrong. IFMAR rules state you must have 6 cells onboard, not EFRA and BRCA. You can run 5 cells if you like now. So why make an uneccesary rule out of this?

Why not be able to run 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8... or what ever cells you like? :lol: It really doesen't matter!

[Lowie]

my 2cts, it would be a loss for RC if LiPo and similar packs get banned.
LiPO is very easy to use, charge, stock ... and a real + for someone beginning on RC.
NiMH are ok, but require a lot more time and work to maintain their performance.
Also, LiPO is very stable and straight forward. In NiMH you will see a big difference between normal, stock elements and the specially treated packs topdrivers get from their sponsors, and thus pumping up the price.
Also NiMh is more expensive if you want to compeed at the front (NiMH: 6 (special) packs, charger with special functions, discharge trays; Lipo: charger + balancer + 2 packs and that's all you need for a day of competition) ... or maybe this is exactly the reason they want to give itthe monopoly. Certainly the manufactors will like this.

[Chrislong]

and the specially treated packs topdrivers get from their sponsors

Let me set the record straight, again. :mad:
Once upon a time when cell performance wasn't what we have now, top drivers MAY have received chosen packs. But this hasn't happened for a long time now, and in some instances the sponsors send out the sport spec cells to the drivers!!!

Top spec cells are available to all, and the potential power we can get is in excess of what we need - so there certainly is no more "chosen packs for the team drivers".

[SHY]

Agree Chris, for OR this really can't be the case. OTOH in 1:12 this is still a nightmare! The Nats this year I dumped with matched EP 4600 cells and a 5,5 with low ratio and zero timing - and that was on the first charge! :thumbdown:

Going to a 1:12 WC or EC is in my opinion a waste of time unless you are sponsored... this is OTOH great about OR!

But again, 5 cells will not be good for the majority of the racers. It will drive costs up.

@Lowie: You forgot the "Battery Nurse" suitcase which isn't cheap either... :cry:

[Zedman]

My 2 cents worth also, 5 cell idea seems totaly stupid,everyone has standard 6 cell packs, and it will f**k with battery mounts on inline packs and saddle packs, not to mention the balence ( yeah like my driving skills will be affected but the top guys will probably notice it ).

Second, I have just come away from a wet race that was snowed off, the less the grip the more fun it was, power sliding, more driver control required.

For off road more power = more fun, u guys doing touring cars have to make your own call but there is no way I would want to loose any power, i will be seriosly looking at LiPO purl to reduce weight and improve the handling of my X11

PS the origional post didnt give a reason for suggested change, have we had an official BRCA statement on WHY ? or is it pure rumour ?

[mark christopher]

you wil also kill any new commer who buys stick packs for his rtr/entry level car

[erkan]

Over here in sweden most ppl have switched to 5 cells to gain the driveablility. if u feel like u need more speed just go down to a 4.5 or whatever. Outdoors the tracks around here are mostly loose dirt and then you cant punch it so much anyway. 5cells is the way go :thumbsup:

[SHY]

Over here in sweden most ppl have switched to 5 cells to gain the driveablility. if u feel like u need more speed just go down to a 4.5 or whatever. Outdoors the tracks around here are mostly loose dirt and then you cant punch it so much anyway. 5cells is the way go :thumbsup:

But erkan, you are allowed to use 5 cells now. Why have a rule LIMITING all drivers to using 5 cells? Why not let those who want use 6? Don't get me wrong, I use it also but not always. The more simple and flexible rules the better in my opinion.

And can anyone check with BRCA if there are any EFRA proposals handed in regarding this issue? (And LiPo)

[Chrislong]

But erkan, you are allowed to use 5 cells now. Why have a rule LIMITING all drivers to using 5 cells? Why not let those who want use 6? Don't get me wrong, I use it also but not always. The more simple and flexible rules the better in my opinion.

And can anyone check with BRCA if there are any EFRA proposals handed in regarding this issue? (And LiPo)

Fully agree. If the drivers choose to run 5 cells then so be it, but don't impose it as a rule. I think the rules should not govern the car to carry 6 if it is being diven from 5 though.

[Lowie]

Let me set the record straight, again. :mad:
Once upon a time when cell performance wasn't what we have now, top drivers MAY have received chosen packs. But this hasn't happened for a long time now, and in some instances the sponsors send out the sport spec cells to the drivers!!!

Top spec cells are available to all, and the potential power we can get is in excess of what we need - so there certainly is no more "chosen packs for the team drivers".
Well, I certainly believe you guys when you state that the situation has changed.
I just told this because I heared stories from the old days ... AND I know at least one driver who gets the best cells his sponsor, manufactor of selected packs can find in his stock (I know the guy personally!) ... but again, I don't doubt you saying that this is no longer a normal situation.
Let's close this dated debate.

Anyway, I agree on the argument of not restricting. Let drivers choose themselves if they drive with 6 or 5 cells.
I certainly learned from tis thread. I will certainly try the 5-cell-"trick" when driving in slippery conditions. I still have some NiMH-packs that need getting out of the battery-box :)

[Fabs]

I remember when the rules got changed to 5-cell in TC a lot of people complained about it. Now everyone agrees it was the right move and is the best TC class we've sen in a while...

I guess the point is, whatever happens we should go out and enjoy racing...

[SHY]

Fully agree. If the drivers choose to run 5 cells then so be it, but don't impose it as a rule. I think the rules should not govern the car to carry 6 if it is being diven from 5 though.

Yup! We don't wanna carry dead weight around!

So... leave the rules as is and just add LiPo! :thumbsup:

[Chrislong]

Well, I certainly believe you guys when you state that the situation has changed.
I just told this because I heared stories from the old days ... AND I know at least one driver who gets the best cells his sponsor, manufactor of selected packs can find in his stock (I know the guy personally!) ... but again, I don't doubt you saying that this is no longer a normal situation.
Let's close this dated debate.

Anyway, I agree on the argument of not restricting. Let drivers choose themselves if they drive with 6 or 5 cells.
I certainly learned from tis thread. I will certainly try the 5-cell-"trick" when driving in slippery conditions. I still have some NiMH-packs that need getting out of the battery-box :)

Hey Lowie. The reason for not getting picked cells is it isn't necessary anymore and of no advantage, it used to be so, and it would likely become so again if 5cell racing became the limit. If someone is telling you otherwise about getting picked cells, he may be getting told lies, or he may be showboating.

For a team driver to get picked cells is actually damaging to the brand in my opinion, especially if potential customers found out - which we do. As if customers think that they need those cells (even if they really don't), and can't get them, then that says something is bad about the product and we'll pick something else. Whereas if the team drivers are using cells no different to whats available, then the equipment which may be winning is available to all and thats good for the brand as they will sell. :thumbsup:

[Lowie]

that indeed, sounds very wise.
(The guy I was talking about, drives On-road. Does that make any difference?)

[Chrislong]

that indeed, sounds very wise.
(The guy I was talking about, drives On-road. Does that make any difference?)


Aaaaah, yes - then picked cells would perhaps be an advantage..... but he shouldn't be telling people he has them. :lol:

Im talking purely off-road with my comments above mate.

[terry.sc]

PS the origional post didnt give a reason for suggested change, have we had an official BRCA statement on WHY ? or is it pure rumour ?You won't get any statement from the BRCA committee as there is no current rule to limit batteries to 5 cell, and if anyone wants to propose 5 cell there's about another 5 months to wait before it is even considered by all the drivers at the AGM. What can the committee say, they can't say it's not true as they don't know what any of the members will propose at the AGM and they can't say it's true for exactly the same reason.

Remember "the BRCA" is not a body that comes up with the rules everyone have to follow, the committee are just a bunch of fellow racers who volunteer their time to organise r/c racing in the UK. BTW the BRCA rules only cover national and regional racing, whatever rules your local club decides to race with has nothing to do with the BRCA, if they want to follow the BRCA rules that's down to them.

A quote from the BRCA website:
First bit is a simple statement:-
The BRCA doesn’t create rules.
The Section Committee’s don’t create rules.The Membership creates the rules & The Officials -you vote in- enforce them.
i.e. Any of us (You, your club mates, an official - any of us) can change or create a rule.
Or more accurately we can ‘Propose’ a rule or rule change.

[telboy]

Why don't people just use their thumbs better to control the cars, instead of threatening rule changes like these?

If your getting too much power, then don't put as much down and lighten the thumbs a little, surely?

[jimmy]

agreed tel, I would take up knitting if 5 cells were the rule! 5 cells is an option and always has been - but its cheaper to run 6 cells than 5. Its cheaper to race modified than stock for the same reason.

[mole2k]

Its far better to have more power available than you can drive becuase that way you just drive with the most power you can sucessfully handle, if the power is limited below that then any slight advantage like specially selected cells will give you an advantage over somebody else driving costs ups as everybody looks for the tiniest advantage.

I would be against a 5 cell rule. Just have a rule to allow up to 6 cells, you could run 4 cells as long as you where on or over the weight limit no need to carry non-powering cells.

I dont really see why you would go to 5 cells would give you more drivablity and if you wanted more power you could just drop a wind. If you added a wind on 6 cells would it not have a very similar effect and the car only goes as quick as the thumbs make it.

[SHY]

Sounds good guys! Seems like most drivers don't want a max 5 cells rule. But will BRCA propose to allow LiPo? In order for it to be voted over at the EFRA AGM someone has to send in a proposal before august. UK has the most activity so it would be great if it came from you! We will try to get a majority that seconds it! :thumbsup:

[elvo]

1
2) You're wrong. IFMAR rules state you must have 6 cells onboard,


No they don't.


4.2.8 Cars will be driven by a maximum of 6 cells and 7.2 volts maximum. For 1/12 the
numbers of cells is limited to 4.


From http://www.ifmar.org/pdf/ifmar_wc_electric_track.pdf

[SHY]

Then I'll bend my head in shame :blush:

Never checked myself before, but several experienced guys claimed this, both for IFMAR and ROAR.

See previous discussion:
http://www.one-ten-rcforums.com/4wdrc/viewtopic.php?id=1333

Quote from Chazz (X-Factory): "There's an IFMAR requirement that you have 6 cells, so at the Worlds everybody just put another solder tab on the 5th one."

Quote from SupahDave: "You have to run 6 Cells per ROAR rules."

Might this have been changed for 2008 then? In any case it's the rules now, so I apologize! :rolleyes:

Has anyone heard anything as to IFMAR allowing LiPo?

Edit: More on ROAR rules:

It actually looks like the americans didn't read their rules properly. In the ROAR Rules 8.3.1.12 it says "Unless a lower number is specified in the class requirements, a maximum of six NiMH NiCad and 2 Lithium type cells is permitted in any vehicle motor power pack used in ROAR-sanctioned competition."

ROAR rule book: http://www.roarracing.com/downloads/2008_ROAR_Rule_Book.pdf

8.10.1.3 for 1:10 OR also specifies this: "Six cells maximum"

See 8.3.2 for LiPo rules:
-there are some "UN" criteria (transport safety regulations)
-ROAR testing & approval (drop, overcharge, short circuit)
-must be hardcased from ABS plastic or similar material
-case halves "sealed" with ROAR approval label (you are not allowed to open it)
-2 cells in series
-3,7 V pr. cell

Charging rules (ROAR):
-charger with LiPo program (of course)
-must have LiPo inside "LiPo Sack" (or similar) when charging (to mitigate fire)
-max 1C charge rate

Note! There's nothing to gain performance wise from charging LiPos at a higher rate than 1C!!! You ONLY save time, and it may be damaged!

To my surprise they may be damaged by being stored fully charged for more than a month. It's advised to store them 1/2 full...

The ROAR rules are VERY detailed and would be a very good place for EFRA to take their initial rules from!

This is the list of approved LiPo batteries:
http://www.roarracing.com/approvals/lipobattery.php

[Fabs]

No they don't.


4.2.8 Cars will be driven by a maximum of 6 cells and 7.2 volts maximum. For 1/12 the
numbers of cells is limited to 4.


From http://www.ifmar.org/pdf/ifmar_wc_electric_track.pdf


These are the rules for 12th and TC nothing to do with off road...

[elvo]

These are the rules for 12th and TC nothing to do with off road...


OK: http://www.ifmar.org/pdf/ifmar_wc_electric_offroad_2007.pdf

4.3.8 Cars will be driven by a maximum of six (6) cells and 7.2 volts maximum.

Better?

[Richard Lowe]

I dont really see why you would go to 5 cells would give you more drivablity and if you wanted more power you could just drop a wind. If you added a wind on 6 cells would it not have a very similar effect and the car only goes as quick as the thumbs make it.
Dropping to 5 cells or going up a wind will make the car slower, but not in the same way :)

Losing a cell reduces punch, but not so much top speed. Going to a slower motor will usually reduce top speed more than torque. I've been experimenting with 5 cells + 5.5 in 2wd over the winter and really like it. In 2wd depending on the surface sometimes the car actually accelerates faster with 5 cells due to the reduced weight and not lighting up the tires :thumbsup:

[Chrislong]

Dropping to 5 cells or going up a wind will make the car slower, but not in the same way :)

Losing a cell reduces punch, but not so much top speed. Going to a slower motor will usually reduce top speed more than torque. I've been experimenting with 5 cells + 5.5 in 2wd over the winter and really like it. In 2wd depending on the surface sometimes the car actually accelerates faster with 5 cells due to the reduced weight and not lighting up the tires :thumbsup:

This is true, same as when a few run 5 cell at Tiverton etc.. But we should be allowed to choose to run 5 cell rather than it being imposed as a maximum... this choice then adds to the fun of setting up the cars. :thumbsup: rather than the frustration of trying to squeeze every smidge of power when the power of 6 cells is required and we're limited to 5. :thumbdown:

[Lee]

Doesn`t it have to be proposed and then seconded by someone in order for it to be voted on?

If so...

Does anyone know of anybody who plans to propose it and what is there reasons behind it?

[mole2k]

Dropping to 5 cells or going up a wind will make the car slower, but not in the same way :)

Losing a cell reduces punch, but not so much top speed. Going to a slower motor will usually reduce top speed more than torque. I've been experimenting with 5 cells + 5.5 in 2wd over the winter and really like it. In 2wd depending on the surface sometimes the car actually accelerates faster with 5 cells due to the reduced weight and not lighting up the tires :thumbsup:

Thanks for clearing that up, I've never driven 5 cells before as my local club run 19t/10.5t so I cant drop a cell and run a quicker motor.

[terry.sc]

Doesn`t it have to be proposed and then seconded by someone in order for it to be voted on?
Yes, but no one seems to have noticed this has been pointed out to them earlier:bored: It isn't going to happen.

[mark christopher]

some one on the present comitee could do it
some one who does not like lipo could do it to rule them out
you can not say it wont happen it takes one proposer and one seconder, its then down to the floor and if a good arguement is made it could end up like TC, with a 19 turn brushless class and one motor too choose from! ie not to everyone liking

[SHY]

Guys, let's get down to business!

BRCA won't propose to limit to 5 cells right?

We won't know if any other country proposes this to the EFRA AGM until a few weeks before AGM in november. If someone does it's important that the BRCA representatives are fully informed about the issue and vote no.

Now, will BRCA propose to allow LiPo or not?

[Lee]

I think its 50/50 for the lipo proposal, i think there are a lot of people against it, manufactures dont want it as profits will drop as less cells will be bought and they last longer etc etc

But then you have those who want to use them for the sake of easiness. etc etc


The brca do seem to have the final say though on stuff like this, im sure we would of liked to use last years cells, but obviously the brca have stepped in on that one.

Im neither for or against lipo, i havent tried it so i cant comment.

[mark christopher]

Guys, let's get down to business!

BRCA won't propose to limit to 5 cells right?

We won't know if any other country proposes this to the EFRA AGM until a few weeks before AGM in november. If someone does it's important that the BRCA representatives are fully informed about the issue and vote no.

Now, will BRCA propose to allow LiPo or not?
the BRCA do NOT propose anyhting in a section, the proposal comes from its members, if i want to propose 5 cell i can if i want to propose we run 19 turn spec motors i can, if i want to propose we ban wings i can, brca can not stop me, nor can they say you are doing this!

I think its 50/50 for the lipo proposal, i think there are a lot of people against it, manufactures dont want it as profits will drop as less cells will be bought and they last longer etc etc

But then you have those who want to use them for the sake of easiness. etc etc


The brca do seem to have the final say though on stuff like this, im sure we would of liked to use last years cells, but obviously the brca have stepped in on that one.

Im neither for or against lipo, i havent tried it so i cant comment.
the old cells do not fit the dimensional rules, thats why there not allowed at sanctioned meetings, the 'EB" enforced this, the off road sectio choose to follow the EB rules/guide lines on behalf of the section voting too do so
the BRCA is its members, there are no paid permanent brca officials who are god (just some unpaid ones lol)

[SHY]

the BRCA do NOT propose anyhting in a section, the proposal comes from its members, if i want to propose 5 cell i can if i want to propose we run 19 turn spec motors i can, if i want to propose we ban wings i can, brca can not stop me, nor can they say you are doing this!

I've been to a few EFRA AGMs, so I know how it works.

Still, it's often the same people we're talking about. You can be a driver, member of a club's board, and BRCA representative. Even an EFRA representative. If not, just communicate.

Our national asscociation DOES have the authority to make rule changes and proposals themselves, but also here it normally comes via a club.

Now then, has or will any UK club propose this via BRCA for the EFRA AGM?

(There's no need to keep this secret)

Better? :lol:

[Lee]

I know the brca doesn`t propose anything but i know brca officials do propose things.

I also know why last years cells are now banned and i am nott saying its wrong, but i think that cells are only going to get more dangerous in the future, if they are regulated to a certain size the only way to increase performance is make the cell walls thinner:thumbdown:


Lipo is looking good all of a sudden:lol:

[SHY]

I know the brca doesn`t propose anything but i know brca officials do propose things.

I also know why last years cells are now banned and i am nott saying its wrong, but i think that cells are only going to get more dangerous in the future, if they are regulated to a certain size the only way to increase performance is make the cell walls thinner:thumbdown:


Lipo is looking good all of a sudden:lol:

Lee, don't worry! LiPo is so much better than NiMH in so many ways!

As to the 2007 battery list, keep in mind that ALL EFRA-associated countries except one voted yes to abandoning the 2007 list and make a totally new 2008 list. Here in Norway we chose to keep also the 2007 list for 2008, with a few exceptions (a few IB batches)

So, which driver or club will propose LiPo via BRCA for the EFRA AGM?

I'll buy that person a pint! :thumbsup:

[Lee]

[/quote]So, which driver or club will propose LiPo via BRCA for the EFRA AGM?

I'll buy that person a pint! :thumbsup:[/quote]



Go on then, ill do it for a pint:thumbsup:



Anyone want to second it, for half a shandy:p

[mark christopher]

lee ill second it FOC
you take the pint

[SHY]

Get it done this week and I'll buy you two pints each! :thumbsup:

Get busy!!!

[Chrislong]

heck, i'll get a box of Carlings and share them around! :thumbsup: LETS MAKE IT A LIPO PARTY

[SHY]

I'll bring some norwegian Aquevit that's been around the equator! And piles of salmon! :lol:

For music we can play #1 hits like:

It's no typo, we want LiPo!

Baby let me charge your LiPo!

Harder, faster, LiPo!

Anyone better? :p

[Chrislong]

I'll bring some norwegian Aquevit that's been around the equator! And piles of salmon! :lol:

For music we can play #1 hits like:

It's no typo, we want LiPo!

Baby let me charge your LiPo!

Harder, faster, LiPo!

Anyone better? :p

You are missing the classics, suchs as MC Hammer, Lipo Time

Cheeky Girls, touch my Lipo

2pac, Wonder if heaven got a Lipo

[mark christopher]

You are missing the classics, suchs as MC Hammer, Lipo Time

Cheeky Girls, touch my Lipo

2pac, Wonder if heaven got a Lipo
one for mrs oople

Im a lipo girl in a lipo world, my car is plastic arnt i fantastic i can dye my hair:woot:, race any where.:thumbsup:

[rich_cree]

I'll bring some norwegian Aquevit that's been around the equator! And piles of salmon! :lol:
:p

In my day it was drugs and alcohol, not mineral water and fish???? Must be getting old.......

I've only run Lipo a couple of times, every time I have it's been great. I've not experienced a Lipo fire as of yet (having said that I have got one on charge in my shed outside right now, I could be experiencing one as we speak?! :confused:). I have however experienced several NiMh cells going pop and had one vent in my face. These have never been my cells, the one that went off on me was a car I was marshalling, not been so tempted to try and fix a mysteriously stopped car again!

I can say the sooner we get rid of exploding cells the better, obviously. If Lipo is the answer then, thats the answer.

I'm really against the idea of an enforced 5 cell limit. In an ideal world every class would be like racing buggies on polished wood like I used to years ago. A 4wd mod buggy was so understressed at the end of 5 minutes that things barely got warm, motors lasted forever, batteries lasted forever, everything was great!

In fact when running 2wd on wood, a stock motor would get hot and go off after a couple of meetings, whereas a mod motor would barely need skimming after about 5 meetings.

Maybe TC needed to go to 10 cells :) ? Actually it still be dull as crap even then.....

I reckon Lipo and brushless will make it that much more atractive to newcomers, just one pack of cells that pretty much live in your car and one motor, your RTR car could get you through your first season with nothing more than the odd spare and tyres to buy, sounds good to me.

[Chris Doughty]

now I know what I have been missing recently, reading those good old posts by Cree...

even down to his comment for reason for edit... :thumbsup:

polished wood floor racing!! oh yeah!!

[rich_cree]

polished wood floor racing!! oh yeah!!

Why thats a good idea Chris ;)

[Chrislong]

In my day it was drugs and alcohol, not mineral water and fish???? Must be getting old.......


Now you mention it, im wonderring just how a party works with fish and mineral water... :lol:... perhaps its smoked salmon. :lol:

[telboy]

Mr Cree, I bow in respect for the wording of your post. Thats got to be the best reply in this thread......appart form mine obviously!!:p


:lol:


Do agree, though Last year in 2wd I think I skimmed my motor once all year, and even then it didn't realy need it I was just bored in between races. TC racing last year I ended up skimming every couple of 'runs'!

I've just sold my com lathe.:thumbsup:

[bigred5765]

if it anit broke dont try to fix it
6 cell or lipo
so lets get a small party going to travel down to the agm and make sure its voted in then

[MikePimlott]

I have not tried Lipo yet but from what ive seen it seems to be a very good idea.

And another rumour ;) Dont theese hard-cased Lipos Implode rather than explode. Problem solved. :thumbsup:

[SHY]

Now you mention it, im wonderring just how a party works with fish and mineral water... :lol:... perhaps its smoked salmon. :lol:

...Allright then! I'll let you have a shot at a tall glass of Aquevit... :thumbsup: It's booze, 60%, transported around the globe in oak barrels, normally served from a frozen bottle and into a VERY small frozen glass... but it's your choice... :lol:

one for mrs oople

Im a lipo girl in a lipo world, my car is plastic arnt i fantastic i can dye my hair, race any where.

Best lyrics so far!!! :thumbsup:

if it anit broke dont try to fix it
6 cell or lipo
so lets get a small party going to travel down to the agm and make sure its voted in then

Someone still has to make the proposal! No proposal, no voting. No fish, no party! :woot:

I have not tried Lipo yet but from what ive seen it seems to be a very good idea.

And another rumour ;) Dont theese hard-cased Lipos Implode rather than explode. Problem solved. :thumbsup:

If you read the ROAR rules (very detailed btw!), you see that they test the following:
-a drop
-short
-overcharge

They must be hardcased and sealed with a ROAR label. Once opened/tampered with = not legal anymore... we only need to copy+paste the ROAR rules into the the EFRA handbook and do a replace all on ROAR > EFRA :thumbsup:

[DCM]

polished wood floor racing!! oh yeah!!

thats what I learnt on, and the IN tyre was Schumi Blue large spikes from the Car XLS.... :woot:

[DCM]

Im a lipo girl in a lipo world, my car is plastic arnt i fantastic i can dye my hair:woot:, race any where.:thumbsup:

I am shocked he knows the lyrics....... unless he got an under 10 girl in the house with her own CD player.... anything you need to get off your chest there Mark??? heehee

[SHY]

A total sidetrack, and you may have seen this already but...

http://www.rctech.net/forum/showthread.php?t=216313

One quote: "HV application is better for larger scale vehicles. For 1/10th scale 3S should be good and that's what I run some of my cars. I don't have time to race, but you could see a huge benefit from going up to 3S lipos. One of those benefits would be less AMP draw. As you know AMP causes heat and heat makes any set up less efficient. You could makes a much power with your 13.5 with 3S lipos as the guy using a lower turn motor (8.5), but you would be using less AMPs and your motor and ESC would be creating less heat. You might even be able to run a 20 to 30 minute main. It's just simple math."

Another: "power=amps*voltage=watts. A 7.4volt 5ah pack will deliver 37watt hours of power. A 22volt 1.6ah pack will deliver 37watt hours of power. You use the same size packs, they are just wired differently. When you lower the amperage resistance is less of a factor & things become more effecient. It is not an matter of wanting more power, instead it is a matter of using a setup that will last longer. However, I will agree that it is hard to argue w/ batt & motor//esc combos that will last you a year w/out replacement."

Amazing! :woot: "Danger High Voltage" stickers on the cars!!!

I just realized I will never, ever be buying any equipment that will "last forever"... there's ALWAYS something new & better around the next corner...

[Lee]

Kanye west has already sung about lipo for us, he sees the future, i wonder if he likes pie :thumbsup:


She was supposed to buy ya shorty Tyco with ya money
She went to the doctor got lipo with ya money

Im going to look into doing something constructive in work today i am going to find out the offical route for a proposal and write one out.

:thumbsup:

[SHY]

:thumbsup:

You'll find the ROAR rules in a previous post here. If you need the EFRA rule proposal form, let me know! (Couldn't see it on www.efra.se now)

[Lee]

I am trying to find the brca procedure on the website but i am struggling at the moment, if anyone knows how to or if there is a link i would be grateful:thumbsup:

[SHY]

I would think you could just fill out the EFRA proposal form, and e-mail that to a BRCA representative.

http://www.ymr.no/EFRA/Rule_Proposal_Blank2008.doc

Let me know if you need any help!

[Lee]

Ok, looking at the roar rules they seem fairly sensible and cover the bases regarding safety, they also stipulate that by jan 09 that all lipo cells shall have a roar approved sticker.

Would it be ok in my proposal to state we should follow ROAR rules? Or is there a thing where the brca is stand alone and like to set a standard and not follow them?


I just want to get this write so it stands more of a chance of being voted on:)

[Northy]

Just email Charlie and ask him.

G

[Lee]

G,

With regard to following roar or the procedure?:confused:


Can you PM me his address:thumbsup:

[mark christopher]

I am shocked he knows the lyrics....... unless he got an under 10 girl in the house with her own CD player.... anything you need to get off your chest there Mark??? heehee
a niece that age when the song was out, its etched in my brain :woot:




as a side note i dont think we need a charge at 1c max for lipo, troakpower advise up to 2c with thier balancer in line, only reason i say this is , i charge my 4900 at 5 amps and my 3200 at 5 amps, purley for time, not performance. even then im at 1.5c
think it should be worded " charge no more than manufactures specs"

[Gayo]

SHY, good lipo lobbying ! :thumbsup:

I have lipos for the 2wd and the transmitter and it's ace ! I can't recommend it enough :wub

I hope we will take the same route in la douce France. Thanks to the ROAR (Dawn Sanchez) for establishing a standard for the lipos in RC cars.

[SHY]

Ok, looking at the roar rules they seem fairly sensible and cover the bases regarding safety, they also stipulate that by jan 09 that all lipo cells shall have a roar approved sticker.

Would it be ok in my proposal to state we should follow ROAR rules? Or is there a thing where the brca is stand alone and like to set a standard and not follow them?


I just want to get this write so it stands more of a chance of being voted on:)

Well, I guess BRCA will just follow the EFRA rules. And hence it will be an EFRA approval. Just point to the paragraphs in the ROAR rule or copy+paste all of into the proposal.

You must either make a new rule or point to an existing rule in the EFRA handbook (do you have it?)

We'll play it safe and stick to 1C for now. LiPos have no memory effect, so you just re-charge it without emtying it first. So you don't need much time. Morover I think we will see a 1C charge limit for ALL types of batteries.

/Hobby Lobbyist :lol:

[Lee]

Ok, this is what i have, what do people think, what would they like me to add or remove.

Edited bits in italics;)

Ammended to read:

3.1
Only rechargeable NiCd, NiMH cells rated at 1.2
volts nominal will be allowed at BRCA sanctioned
events. The size of the individual cell(s) to be:-
Diameter: 23.0mm +0/-1mm
Overall length: 43.0mm +0/-1.5mm
Measurements include original manufacturers
heat-shrink. Overall length is the maximum
length before attaching/soldering any link wires
or battery bars. Dimensions taken at ambient
temperature, and apply to new/unused cells as
submitted by the manufacturer. Cells must never
exceed 44.0 mm length after any ‘matching’ or
charging processes. All cells must have the original
manufacturer’s heatshrink substantially
intact. Weights of submitted samples will be
recorded to verify that production versions compare.
From 2008 onwards, it is intended to
amend the rule that cells must never exceed
43.0mm (including any distortion from charging).

Lithium Polymer battery packs may be used to power electric racing cars if a Certification
Of Compliance has been received and accepted by BRCA from the manufacturers of the
battery packs. The Certification of Compliance indicates that the Lithium Polymer cells
internal to the battery packs have been tested in accordance with UN T1-T8, the United
Nations Recommendations on the Transport of Dangerous Goods, Manual of Test and
Criteria (ST/SG/AC.10.11/Rev.4) and passed the acceptance criteria. Lithium Polymer
battery packs that do not have UN certification must pass the ROAR tests
and performed by the ROAR Li-Poly Test laboratory. Certification of Compliance to these
test requirements and acceptance criteria shall be provided by the Original Manufacturer
of the batteries. The Certification of Compliance will apply to all Lithium-Polymer products
from the Original Manufacturer and provided on a one time basis. The Certification of
Compliance can be sent directly to BRCA by the Original Manufacturer or supplied to
BRCA by the Value Added Manufacturer that distributes the batteries. A Value Added
Manufacturer must also provide BRCA a Statement of Origin identifying the Original
Manufacturer of the cells used in the battery pack and the number of battery packs
provided for sale within the United kingdom. The Value Added Manufacturer performs the
assembly of cells into battery packs, installs the hard protective case and provides the
electrical hook up points. The Original Manufacturer is the manufacturer of the individual
cells.

Li-Poly battery packs must have a hard, protective case that surrounds the cell(s) in
the racing application. A factory encased hard shell pack is mandated for race
durability reasons that stem from the vulnerability of Lipo cells to physical damage.
Any physical distortion, denting or puncture to the cells will cause either an immediate

or long term safety risk. A hard cased pack reduces this risk significantly by protecting
the cells from crash damage, battery ejection, and general wear and tear at the track.
ROAR defines the "hard case" as a case made of ABS or similar type material. The
case shall consist of two (2) halves with each half being constructed from a single
mould that is not easily pliable and retains it shape without any exterior or interior
support. Both the top and bottom sections of the case must be secured together by
glue, double-sided tape or heat seal with a label across the seam stating "ROAR
Approved" in such a manner that separation of the case to remove or replace the cells
will destroy the case and/or label and render it unusable in competition. The case
must be installed by the manufacturer or Value added manufacturer no end User
installed cases are acceptable. The case will protect the cells from damage on all
sides and will completely cover all cells having only openings for wire connections.
Any modification to the factory approved hard case will make the pack ineligible for
participation in BRCA events.
Note: Approved batteries will be required to have "ROAR Approved" Label
across the seam by Jan 2009. ROAR will have a grandfather clause until Jan
2009 for all approved cells at competition on the Label rule.
The maximum case size shall be as follows:
Length: 139mm +0mm/-3mm
Width: 47mm +0mm/-2mm
Height: 25.1mm +0mm/-3.0mm
3.2

All rechargeable batteries must meet BRCA
specifications before they will be approved by
the BRCA Electric Board. Details of newly
approved rechargeable batteries will be published
on the BRCA website. Only batteries
appearing on the official BRCA website homologation
list published in January will be legal for
use at BRCA sanctioned events from 1st.April
of that calendar year.


As you can see i have kept it fairly simple for the BRCA, if we follow the ROAR rules then it will save the BRCA (PW i assume) a lot of time and headaches testing the lipo cells.

If anyone thinks this should be ammended in any way let me know, once we have the BRCA one sorted i will transpose brca for EFRA and get that one done too. We dont want to be buying new cells for the euros:thumbsup:

[MattW]

You don't really need to write the rules for LiPo - because the EB is already doing something for the pro stock class in touring car. So just adopt that. There is a list of allowed LiPo's, so should be no problem.

[Lee]

Cheers Matt,

Ammend 3.1 to read

Only rechargeable NiCd, NiMH and LIPO cells which are on the approved EB list will be allowed at BRCA sanctioned events.



That was easy:lol:

[mobile chicane]

wow good work guys, as soon as lipo isd the standard I'm getting another for my cars and a pack for my transmitter GO LIPOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO :woot:

[Lee]

I expect a sample from the lipo manufacture`s if it gets approved :woot:

[Alfonzo]

Good work Lee, et al. Lipo is the future. Bring it on :)

[mark christopher]

We'll play it safe and stick to 1C for now. LiPos have no memory effect, so you just re-charge it without emtying it first. So you don't need much time. Morover I think we will see a 1C charge limit for ALL types of batteries.

/Hobby Lobbyist :lol:


its club meetigs that dont have much time

Ok, this is what i have, what do people think, what would they like me to add or remove.




Note: Approved batteries will be required to have "ROAR Approved" Label


across the seam by Jan 2009. ROAR will have a grandfather clause until Jan


2009 for all approved cells at competition on the Label rule.


The maximum case size shall be as follows:


Length: 139mm +0mm/-3mm


Width: 47mm +0mm/-2mm



Height: 25.1mm +0mm/-3.0mm

3.2


All rechargeable batteries must meet BRCA

specifications before they will be approved by

the BRCA Electric Board. Details of newly


approved rechargeable batteries will be published


on the BRCA website. Only batteries


appearing on the official BRCA website homologation


list published in January will be legal for


use at BRCA sanctioned events from 1st.April



of that calendar year.


As you can see i have kept it fairly simple for the BRCA, if we follow the ROAR rules then it will save the BRCA (PW i assume) a lot of time and headaches testing the lipo cells.

If anyone thinks this should be ammended in any way let me know, once we have the BRCA one sorted i will transpose brca for EFRA and get that one done too. We dont want to be buying new cells for the euros:thumbsup:



the current brca packs have a label dont think it needs to say "roar aproved" for brca use

finally

dimensions

to go 25mm you rule out just about all saddle packs over 3200 capacity

[MattW]

Lee, in principle, that is all you need. I could be wrong, but i have a feeling there are a couple of other rules that would need a small tweak as well - like the one talking about max of 6 cells etc

[Lee]

Cheers Matt,

Ammend 3.1 to read

Only rechargeable NiCd, NiMH and LIPO cells which are on the approved EB list will be allowed at BRCA sanctioned events.





Mark,

Do you think this one is a better proposal then?

Would you still be happy to second it?

[Cockerill]

Do we need as many rules as what is already set by the BRCA for touring cars. Is there really a need for size and capacity limitations in off-road? We can easily make 5 mins on a 3200 Lipo and we can already easily over power our cars. If people want to try and shoe horn a 10000mah battery into there car then go for it, it wouldn't bother me as I see no advantage.

Could we not just use simple rules such as:

Max 7.4v
Must be Hard Cased
+ The Safety Rules as mentioned by BRCA/ROAR Rules

[Chris Doughty]

I have a 8000mAh pack and a 5000mAh pack and there is no differance in performance at all other than weight (the 8000 being heavier obviously)

runtime obviously is different but who cares if you can make 20 minutes or 35 minutes when we are running 5 minute races?

[Lee]

Ok so this might be a little better

Ammend 3.1 to read

Only rechargeable NiCd, NiMH cells which are on the approved EB list and LIPO batteries with a Max 7.4v, which are also Hard Cased and follow the Safety Rules as mentioned by BRCA/ROAR Rules shall be allowed at BRCA sanctioned events.

[Lee]

The last thing i was is to propose something and then, for people to say that they wish "item X" had of been included, i would also like it to have a pretty strong case for anyone who is against lipo. I dont want it to be rejected in other words

[Chris Doughty]

I thought the idea of proposing something was just that.

you propose the idea, the exact wording can be adjusted or made 'tight'

we are not expected to be legal hot-shots and able to write perfect rules

[Lee]

CD, do you think post 135 would be acceptable then?

It gives an idea of what we want but not too much info for people to pick holes in. :)

[SHY]

Do we need as many rules as what is already set by the BRCA for touring cars. Is there really a need for size and capacity limitations in off-road? We can easily make 5 mins on a 3200 Lipo and we can already easily over power our cars. If people want to try and shoe horn a 10000mah battery into there car then go for it, it wouldn't bother me as I see no advantage.

Could we not just use simple rules such as:

Max 7.4v
Must be Hard Cased
+ The Safety Rules as mentioned by BRCA/ROAR Rules

Agree! K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid)

Did the ROAR rules say anything as to dimension???

[Lee]

Agree! K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid)

Did the ROAR rules say anything as to dimension???

Yes they did shy, that was where the 25mm dimension came from:thumbdown:


I think the proposal in post #135 is about right

[mark christopher]

Mark,

Do you think this one is a better proposal then?

Would you still be happy to second it?

Do we need as many rules as what is already set by the BRCA for touring cars. Is there really a need for size and capacity limitations in off-road? We can easily make 5 mins on a 3200 Lipo and we can already easily over power our cars. If people want to try and shoe horn a 10000mah battery into there car then go for it, it wouldn't bother me as I see no advantage.

Could we not just use simple rules such as:

Max 7.4v
Must be Hard Cased
+ The Safety Rules as mentioned by BRCA/ROAR Rules


i like toms rules, why have to police cells more then 7.4 and hard case, both easy to check for lipo, nimh use brca eb list, or if the lipo need apoving on rb list then specify no size/capacity limits just hard cased and 7.4v and on brca eb list

[SHY]

Note! You can write several different proposals, and send'em all in!

EFRA AGMs are very long and tiring, and the more "complete" the proposals are the better!

1) seconding
2) voting

Rewriting proposals at the AGM is pain... and in principle should not be done!

We could at least have one simple proposal and one "full ROAR adoption"?

Yes they did shy, that was where the 25mm dimension came from:thumbdown:


I think the proposal in post #135 is about right

I agree then, f*** that, just state 7,4 volt max, hardcasing & EFRA approved battery list...

Btw. in the UK, you use the EFRA battery list right? You don't use a "BRCA list"?

[Cockerill]

I think we still need an 'EB List' as such with Lipo. Just the same way the NiMH one works with new cells added once a year. This makes it very easy for the racers as once they have seen the list and got the cells they know they will do all season, without a new cell coming out that is better. Possibly with some re-wording to allow 'new batteries' to be allowed at the Indoor Finals as happened this year, as the Indoor finals is closer to the next years nationals than the previous years, if you get me?

We also need some control on this 'EB List' in the way of safety of the packs. The ROAR rules have a lot of safety tests to ensure that the packs are not dangerous. These are rules that we need to look at/adopt, but they are probably best set by the people who know what they are talking about, not on internet forums!

Regarding a proposal for EFRA I've no idea how it works, but I would like to see Lipo passed for off-road for next year. Preferably to the same rules as whatever the BRCA would be so that we have some consistency.

[SHY]

There's nothing wrong with doing it here and now. All proposals come from racers. And there has always been too much lack of influence and interest when it comes to this. This is a very fruitful discussion! :thumbsup: Don't say "others know best" - there is no "others"! :lol: It's just you & me! There's no "men in dark suits" doing the thinking for us! :lol: It may very well be a guy who could have been a Beetle that makes that brilliant new proposal! ;) (nice cut!)

In the past batteries, mufflers, bodies etc were constantly added. So I myself actually proposed to "freeze" the list for one whole year at the time some years ago... and it was passed! :thumbsup:

I guess we can leave the testing of batteries to EFRA, they already do this for NiMH. But we should spec what types of LiPo is legal.

Then again, just saying we impose a 7,4 V limit and use the EFRA battery list would work just fine.

Actually, for 1:10 OR, we could just leave it totally open and just have a battery list... If someone wants to run with 20 volts who cares?

[Cockerill]

Actually, for 1:10 OR, we could just leave it totally open and just have a battery list... If someone wants to run with 20 volts who cares?

Now that would open a can of Worms :lol:. Unfortunately I can't see it been passed.

What is the EFRA Battery List tho? At the moment they have no rules for Lipo so we need to make them. What I'm saying is that we should define the rules for what we are allowed to run eg. Max 7.4volts, Hard case, but we need the safety rules to be set by people who know what they are talking about.

If you read the ROAR rules they have a long list of what tests the packs must pass before they can be added to the List. We need tests like this to ensure the cells are up to a certain quality. These are the things that need to be decided by the people in the know.

[glypo]

Well yes, at the moment the BRCA and EFRA approved list are two of the same thing. So really we need EFRA to get moving on LiPo. However having a BRCA only list until EFRA do one is a good idea.

Has anyone tried contacting the Paul Worsley, who makes the BRCA and EFRA lists, about how it would be best to test LiPo etc? He is the one who has written the preliminary LiPo rules on the BRCA website.... so I suggest people start there in their quest to get LiPo race legal.

[mark christopher]

Note! You can write several different proposals, and send'em all in!

EFRA AGMs are very long and tiring, and the more "complete" the proposals are the better!

1) seconding
2) voting

Rewriting proposals at the AGM is pain... and in principle should not be done!

We could at least have one simple proposal and one "full ROAR adoption"?



I agree then, f*** that, just state 7,4 volt max, hardcasing & EFRA approved battery list...

Btw. in the UK, you use the EFRA battery list right? You don't use a "BRCA list"?
in the uk we use the brca EB list
the rule needs to be simple precise and to the point other wise it may get amended on the floor.
as far as im concerned im only interested in getting the brca to accept lipo so any proposal i back is for the BRCA agm unless there is a rule in the brca to aadpot efraa rules

sorry but im in the brca, thats where my vote goes

tom the lipo list for tc is updated as and when cells are submitted, its not anual at the min

[Cockerill]

tom the lipo list for tc is updated as and when cells are submitted, its not anual at the min

Yeah, I was under the impression as it is a trail class as such they decided to use a list that can be updated throughout the year as the packs develop. However, for off-road I would like to see the usual format return of one list a year.

[MattW]

Tom, I suspect (and it's no more than that) that the "floating" nature, is only likely to be in place for this year - with it being the first. I really think that the easiest thing is just go with the EB spec, rules and list. No need to duplicate.

Bearing in mind who the off rd chairman is, and who is heavily involved with the EB................makes sense to combine.

[SHY]

in the uk we use the brca EB list
the rule needs to be simple precise and to the point other wise it may get amended on the floor.
as far as im concerned im only interested in getting the brca to accept lipo so any proposal i back is for the BRCA agm unless there is a rule in the brca to aadpot efraa rules

sorry but im in the brca, thats where my vote goes

tom the lipo list for tc is updated as and when cells are submitted, its not anual at the min

OK, so UK is an island... but come on! :lol:

This is something drivers in all countries in Europe will benefit from. And you have a lot of UK drivers going to the EC, which will be run by EFRA rules. And as already stated the BRCA list will in essence be the EFRA list. One should always propose a new rule BOTH to your national association AND EFRA. In order to keep things simple. Most countries adapt all new EFRA rules/changes as well.

If someone could have a chat with Paul that would be great!

[Chrislong]

I think there is some concern from the BRCA/EB of Lipos not fitting all cars, but its the racers (i.e. the BRCA members, specifically the ones who own the cars) who make the proposals... the question is, will the racers (see brackets above) who can't get Lipo in be against the Lipo proposal?

Cars such as the S4, Aero, especially, where the prop gets in the way of any Lipo pack will be hard to modify to make the packs fit. But with a Lipo rule, the development of cars will be such that they'll all fit Lipo packs eventually.

Id like a ruling of hard cased with details, inclusion of saddle Lipo packs, therefore two sets of dimensions for stick/saddle. With Lipo list update inline with cell list - 1st April every year.

Maximum voltage for powering the car by whichever type, 7.4v.

From whatever proposal is put forward, the BRCA will fill in the blanks.

Chris

[Chris Doughty]

I think there is a need for dimensions, like Chris said, mainly for car fitments. - fitting under battery straps in 2WD for example.

with regard to cars with non standard mountings, my Atomic AE B44 would not fit LiPo without some adjustments. but as long as you don't ban nmhi thats fine.

[SHY]

I don't see why we need size restrictions. There will be the NiMH cells and plenty of LiPos that will fit. If someone wants to use a high capacity LiPo pack, why not let him? Perfect for the average budget racer!

It will also be in the manufacturers interest to make packs that fit most cars to sell as much as they can.

Runtime will never ever become a problem in 1:10 OR, and it won't be faster with a big pack...

[Cockerill]

I don't see why we need a specific maximum size. The main reason I don't think we need one is if we have saddle packs that means we need yet another set of dimensions. If a pack does not fit the most common cars, no one is going to buy it, therefore it is kind of a non existent problem.

By having set dimensions the manufacturer's will push the limits of cell size within these limits. By having size free they can use whatever size they want, but if they want to sell it, it has to fit in the cars.

[mark christopher]

I think there is some concern from the BRCA/EB of Lipos not fitting all cars, but its the racers who make the proposals... the question is, will the racers who can;t get Lipo in be against the Lipo proposal?

Cars such as the S4, Aero, especially, where the prop gets in the way of any Lipo pack will be hard to modify to make the packs fit. But with a Lipo rule, the development of cars will be such that they'll all fit Lipo packs eventually.

Id like a ruling of hard cased with details, inclusion of saddle Lipo packs, therefore two sets of dimensions for stick/saddle. With Lipo list update inline with cell list - 1st April every year.

Maximum voltage for powering the car by whichever type, 7.4v.

From whatever proposal is put forward, the BRCA will fill in the blanks.

Chris
chris i dont think suc c cell is less than 22mm? trackpower 3200 saddle will be 20mm same as stick those needing small packs can buy em, those who can use larger should be allowed to
I think there is a need for dimensions, like Chris said, mainly for car fitments. - fitting under battery straps in 2WD for example.

with regard to cars with non standard mountings, my Atomic AE B44 would not fit LiPo without some adjustments. but as long as you don't ban nmhi thats fine.

chris see my post re b4 fittment, two longer grub screws and 30mm saddles fit in a b4

I don't see why we need a specific maximum size. The main reason I don't think we need one is if we have saddle packs that means we need yet another set of dimensions. If a pack does not fit the most common cars, no one is going to buy it, therefore it is kind of a non existent problem.

By having set dimensions the manufacturer's will push the limits of cell size within these limits. By having size free they can use whatever size they want, but if they want to sell it, it has to fit in the cars.
fully agree tom, if lipo becomes the norm manufactures will design cars to suit the best packs too

[Chris Doughty]

Mark, I completely agree about fitting in the B4, I have some of the massive 8000's in my B4.

not sure they fit in am RB5 or XXX though.

I think the OD of a subC cell is 23mm so it makes sense for the size rules to be of similar size to an assembled 6 cell side-by-side pack like most 2WD's run.

I think the LiPo rules should be that any 'complete' battery should comply with those dimensioned, for example, the saddle if placed end to end as you would in a 'stick' 2WD car, should be the same as a single brick LiPo

this would also allow slightly more crazy configs such as 2+2+2 style cells that run in the S4 or 4+2 that run in the X5 to be made up from LiPo cells.

as long as when put 'together' it does not exceed the HxWxL measurements

[SHY]

But for the time being it's only 3,7 volts pr. cell... = 2 cells

For the X-5 it's better to have it all on the right side, gives perfect balance.

The S4 is more difficult, but since weight is less you can just compensate with lead weights or a weight plate. I'm sure J will figure this out though!

The 2 saddles = 1 stick is a good thought!

All of them should emulate knobs as well!

But I'm sure the manufacturers will see the need for all this. And you can just choose the pack you prefer :)

[mark christopher]

Mark, I completely agree about fitting in the B4, I have some of the massive 8000's in my B4.

not sure they fit in am RB5 or XXX though.

I think the OD of a subC cell is 23mm so it makes sense for the size rules to be of similar size to an assembled 6 cell side-by-side pack like most 2WD's run.

I think the LiPo rules should be that any 'complete' battery should comply with those dimensioned, for example, the saddle if placed end to end as you would in a 'stick' 2WD car, should be the same as a single brick LiPo

this would also allow slightly more crazy configs such as 2+2+2 style cells that run in the S4 or 4+2 that run in the X5 to be made up from LiPo cells.

as long as when put 'together' it does not exceed the HxWxL measurements

saddle is a strugle to get small as the cell configuration is the problem, could make ur 2 = 2 = 2 but would prob be just 1300mah

saddle in my experience needs a different look at for dimensions

[Chrislong]

Sometimes I look at the topic and think to myself "This is only toy car racing". Perhaps some people (not neccessarily you guys) take it more seriously than I do, and they definately should not do that, as to do that removes the reason why we started this hobby in the first place and why we're still doing it now, and thats for escapism from our student/work/family life doing something very enjoyable with equal minded people. :thumbsup:

Random I know. if anyone takes the above to heart then I mean no offense. So lets not loose our minds on this.

if we want Lipo, lets propose Lipo, then attend the AGM :thumbsup:

[SHY]

So my girlfriend keeps saying... :lol: Spot on Chris!

Personally I just wanna race and have fun! AND with as little maintenance, costs & hassle as possible.

B/L was a blessing!
LiPo would be #2 blessing!
Maintenance free diffs and I would die a happy man...

Rules should be kept to an absolute minimum! Even race organizers and judges are confused these days...

Still, we missed the LiPo train this year... let's make sure we get on the next one! :thumbsup:

[Lee]

Totally agree Mr Long:thumbsup:


You just have to look at what i have started on the bumper/no bumper thread to see that off road is heading towards onroad in certain aspects:thumbdown:


People just need to use their heads and a pinch of common sense:thumbsup:

[SHY]

How is it going with your proposal Lee? Handed in?

[Chrislong]

If anyone wants a lift to the AGM who lives around here, then im happy to car share and split the fuel bill.. :thumbsup:

Itd be a crying shame to want Lipo and fail to get it through as none of us attended the AGM :thumbdown:, granted, I have never been to the AGM before, but in this instance I think it is important we all do and show the mass support..... then go for a pint.

[mark christopher]

How is it going with your proposal Lee? Handed in?
you got till august/september time yet to propose for the brca, lets throw it around and get a dam good bullet proof proposal and fire one good one in

[stegger]

you got till august/september time yet to propose for the brca, lets throw it around and get a dam good bullet proof proposal and fire one good one in
Makes sense, and then turn up and vote. Otherwise we can't moan.;)

[SHY]

For you Chris... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFDgSKbapzY

Let's think like europeans guys, the EFRA deadline is the beginning of august! Think about Gayo and the rest of the poor french guys for instance... all they would have left is red wine, some cheese and NiMH...

[Lee]

Ok so this might be a little better

Ammend 3.1 to read

Only rechargeable NiCd, NiMH cells which are on the approved EB list and LIPO batteries with a Max 7.4v, which are also Hard Cased and follow the Safety Rules as mentioned by BRCA/ROAR Rules shall be allowed at BRCA sanctioned events.

Shy,

I emailed Charlie F yesterday to find out the official proposal route, i think the one above is quite close, i think it covers the bases but keeps things simple at the same time.

[mark christopher]

Shy,

I emailed Charlie F yesterday to find out the official proposal route, i think the one above is quite close, i think it covers the bases but keeps things simple at the same time.
id like to amend it

the eb are to asses the sizes of saddle pack and increase the hieght and length acordingly to suit the majority of packs avaialble

my reason
the current EB lipo rules only cover the stick pack variety

[Chrislong]

There is nothing to say that there only needs to be one proposal, just make sure the one you send says what you want but no need to go over the fine details, the EB will fill in the blanks.. The important thing is that there is atleast one and that the AGM is attended.

Shy, will you have a proposal for the Nowegian federation? afterall this discussion is leaning towards the BRCA and it can't really effect you except for ideas towards the Norwegian proposal on the same subject.

[SHY]

There is nothing to say that there only needs to be one proposal, just make sure the one you send says what you want but no need to go over the fine details, the EB will fill in the blanks.. The important thing is that there is atleast one and that the AGM is attended.

Shy, will you have a proposal for the Nowegian federation? afterall this discussion is leaning towards the BRCA and it can't really effect you except for ideas towards the Norwegian proposal on the same subject.

I'm doing what I can to get a proposal delivered from the Norwegian federation to the EFRA AGM, but it's not in place yet. I'm the secretary of the Oslo club and I need majority in the board first. I'll be back with more info as soon as I can.

Keep in mind that ALL european federations will have a say at the EFRA AGM, so don't be afraid to hand a proposal to BRCA and ask them to pass it on to EFRA. It will be presented at the EFRA AGM as a BRCA proposal.

We are a small country with low activity, as most countries in Europe. In UK 1:10 OR is massive, and your say would weigh very heavily at the EFRA AGM. A poll or a list of drivers for/against LiPo I think would be very good for BRCA to present to EFRA.

[bigred5765]

chris we will come or drive with you to the agm and im all in favour of seconding or proposeing it

[Chrislong]

That makes good sense regarding Efra. I may ask Paul/Charlie tonight for details of how it would work etc.. first..... the country.... next..... Europe..... then.... the WORLD... :lol:

Did I read that the Efra AGM is before the BRCA agm?

[MattW]

Chris, it is usually the week after the BRCA AGM.

[Chrislong]

Week after.. In that case is it feasable to ask the BRCA to propose to the Efra that they adopt the BRCA rule if one is accepted and made.

I ask if it is feasable as this proposal regarding Efra will have to be made before the rule is discussed in the BRCA agm... therefore the proposal is very vague, but it would be good to be the same.

[SHY]

Week after.. In that case is it feasable to ask the BRCA to propose to the Efra that they adopt the BRCA rule if one is accepted and made.

I ask if it is feasable as this proposal regarding Efra will have to be made before the rule is discussed in the BRCA agm... therefore the proposal is very vague, but it would be good to be the same.

Yes, BRCA must send the proposal to EFRA early august, otherwise it will be too late. Just check with BRCA what guidelines they have as to this.

[mark christopher]

Yes, BRCA must send the proposal to EFRA early august, otherwise it will be too late. Just check with BRCA what guidelines they have as to this.
thats no good though if the brca dont accept it and later efra do! that has happened before

[Chrislong]

thats no good though if the brca dont accept it and later efra do! that has happened before

There are lots of if's and but's, don't loose any sleep over it, just make sure to attend the AGM and support the proposal and then that'll help the cause no end. :thumbsup:

[SHY]

So fast guys... is the proposal handed in? :D

[mobile chicane]

OMG what have I started, good work guys :wub:thumbsup::D

[Chrislong]

So fast guys... is the proposal handed in? :D

Our proposal and your proposal are two different things. So have you done yours?

Have faith, that you don't need to worry about the BRCA, all is well. You just need to focus on whats effecting the Norwegian racing and your route of proposal to Efra if you choose to do one.

[SHY]

Why is it two different things?

A lot of you guys do EFRA GPs and ECs, so I just don't see why we cannot discuss EFRA rule changes?

I'm doing what I can. I've got my club board's approval, so I will hand in the EFRA rule proposal to our national federation. They will have a meeting in june and decide whether or not to hand the proposal on to EFRA before the deadline in august.

I was hoping one of you could do the same. What you do as to BRCA and a BRCA rule change I'm not that concerned about. But if you are pro LiPo I would have suggested a rule proposal both to BRCA and EFRA. There's no reason not do do that.

We should all be concerned with the EFRA rules, since we all live in Europe. If we all agree on this and work together it'll be just fine! :thumbsup:

[mark christopher]

Why is it two different things?

A lot of you guys do EFRA GPs and ECs, so I just don't see why we cannot discuss EFRA rule changes?

I'm doing what I can. I've got my club board's approval, so I will hand in the EFRA rule proposal to our national federation. They will have a meeting in june and decide whether or not to hand the proposal on to EFRA before the deadline in august.

I was hoping one of you could do the same. What you do as to BRCA and a BRCA rule change I'm not that concerned about. But if you are pro LiPo I would have suggested a rule proposal both to BRCA and EFRA. There's no reason not do do that.

We should all be concerned with the EFRA rules, since we all live in Europe. If we all agree on this and work together it'll be just fine! :thumbsup:
sorry mate i live in England NOT europe

[burgie]

sorry mate i live in England NOT europe


d'Oh :lol:

[SHY]

Why is the BRCA a member of EFRA? :lol:

[Chrislong]

Without being offensive, what happens with the BRCA does not concern you one bit, and if it did, the Forum is the wrong place to go about it.

What happens with the Efra does, but your method of proposing Lipo still does not involve the BRCA.

We are getting on with it, as we want Lipo, please please stop going on about it as we don't need supervision, its happening, we want it too and its being dealt with in the proper way. :lol::thumbsup:

Shy, please don't take offense, if you do your part for Norway, we do our in England, overall our voice will be stronger. ;) result

[SHY]

No worries, I'll leave you alone :D AND I'll buy you a beer Chris!

[Alfonzo]

sorry mate i live in England NOT europe

And England is a member of the EU. Just in case you had forgotten :lol:

[jimmy]

I live in Europe! :thumbsup: it's ace!

[mark christopher]

Why is the BRCA a member of EFRA? :lol:
same reason as i am a efra member (or licence holder)
And England is a member of the EU. Just in case you had forgotten :lol:
a choice made by over paid polatitions not by many of the general public
i dont phrase this country as great britain as the goverments and do gooders have kicked the great out of it (unless your on benifits or are an imigrent)

[Alfonzo]

The more I see of our own 'leaders', the more European I'm becoming. Bring it on ;)

[mark christopher]

d'Oh :lol:
same as i dont live in wales, scotland or ireland!

[SHY]

Guys, I'm finishing my EFRA proposal for LiPo. And I'd like to have your views on a matter:

Dimensions: ROAR uses max lenght 139 +0/-3 mm, width 47 +0/-2 mm, height 25.1 +0/-3 mm.

I think Chris Doughty had a good point as to if you want to have some sizes set - it should be no larger than a std. stickpack (fit a B4 without modifications done to the chassis).

A NiMH cell is approx 23 mm thick. 6x 23 = 138 mm long.
A NiMH cell is approx 43 mm long. 3x 43 = 129 mm long.
How long is a std. stick-pack (assembled)?

As to my measurements 48 mm is max width in a B4 chassis.

So I thought about these max. measurements:
length 139 mm
width 48 mm
height 25 mm (that also is a bit on the limit isn't it?)
Two saddle packs should not be longer than 139 mm placed in series (like a stick pack)

Feedback is highly appreciated! Thanks!

[Chrislong]

Sounds good.

Personally I think the suggestion should be as basic as "allow Lipo" and then the nitty-gritty will be dealt with by the EB, who'll consider car fitment, viable sizes and hard casing types etc.. afterall they exist to represent us, not to work against us.

By all means, include your workings. But perhaps make the proposal 2 stage if that makes sense, so the main proposal is the basic and the sub-proposal is the nitty-gritty... this way they can adopt or tweek each part individually.

1) Allow Lipo
a) width =
b) length =
c) height =
d) Max C rating
e) Max capacity
f) charging guidelines and safety instructions

[SHY]

Sure, I will make more than one variation of the proposal. We need a few good and "complete" alternatives, and then all countries can consider them and vote.

All help and ideas are very helpful. There's no "EFRA wizard" who knows these things, we might just as well figure this out now. They have tons of other matters to attend to at the EFRA AGM. The best thing is to have crystal clear proposals, which can simply be voted on.

Other than the dimension rules I find the ROAR rules very good and thorough.

A few minor things though:
-do we need an "EFRA approved" sticker to "seal" the LiPo cases? (might be difficult to implement. I see ROAR has postponed this until jan 2009)
-you must charge inside a "Lipo Sack or similar". Would it not be better if EFRA provided a list of approved devices for this use?

[Chrislong]

Sorry, but I think you are wrong to try to figure it out now. There IS an Efra Wizard, this is the EB, and they will take control of the figuring out. This is why we just need to propose Lipo and support the proposal at the AGM, the nitty-gritty is not for us to work out whether at home or on here.

[SHY]

I give up!!!...

I've written many EFRA proposals, and I've been to several EFRA AGMs, how many have you attended Chris?

Can't we just get a discussion going on the details here? If you find it a waste of time, don't bother with it.

As you already pointed out: You do it your way, I do it my way. OK? :)

[B44&501xRacerEX]

I live in Europe! :thumbsup: it's ace!

I heard you guys race on highshool gym floors....
or was that just a england race on you tube....nm
I'm usa and race on dirt, either loose dirt(B44) or clay(501x WE)
I also aquired a yokomo carpet car recently.:thumbsup:

[Lee]

I'm usa

Amazing :thumbsup:


I also aquired a yokomo carpet car recently.:thumbsup:

Is it fluffy:confused:

[Chrislong]

I give up!!!...

I've written many EFRA proposals, and I've been to several EFRA AGMs, how many have you attended Chris?

Can't we just get a discussion going on the details here? If you find it a waste of time, don't bother with it.

As you already pointed out: You do it your way, I do it my way. OK? :)

:lol: If you wish to do it your way, be my guest, but its Jimmy who id like to confirm - is this the right place for this topic? I think not.

[mark christopher]

Guys, I'm finishing my EFRA proposal for LiPo. And I'd like to have your views on a matter:

Dimensions: ROAR uses max lenght 139 +0/-3 mm, width 47 +0/-2 mm, height 25.1 +0/-3 mm.

I think Chris Doughty had a good point as to if you want to have some sizes set - it should be no larger than a std. stickpack (fit a B4 without modifications done to the chassis).

A NiMH cell is approx 23 mm thick. 6x 23 = 138 mm long.
A NiMH cell is approx 43 mm long. 3x 43 = 129 mm long.
How long is a std. stick-pack (assembled)?

As to my measurements 48 mm is max width in a B4 chassis.

So I thought about these max. measurements:
length 139 mm
width 48 mm
height 25 mm (that also is a bit on the limit isn't it?)
Two saddle packs should not be longer than 139 mm placed in series (like a stick pack)

Feedback is highly appreciated! Thanks!


you have just ruled out most lipo saddle well done
trakpowers is 70 x 47 x 30 for the 4900 and the 3200 will be 70x47x21ish, why dont you do your homework and get dimensions of manufactures before you outlaw whats available, this shows a poor proposal and not well thought out

saddle needs to be different. ie bit longer and taller

b44 takes the 4800 under the top deck so where did your measurents come from?

chris has the best sugestion get lipo in and let the boffins work the rest out


how many of your proposals got through???

[Chrislong]

chris has the best sugestion get lipo in and let the boffins work the rest out


Thanks Mark. I am for Lipo so lets not bicker, lets use this thread to find out the interest and gather support and more importantly - attendence at the AGM of those keen for Lipo like many of us are. (otherwise its pointless).

Carl, im up for sharing a lift if you don't mind, Mr.Cocker too? :thumbsup: The more the merrier. :lol:

[bigred5765]

nps at all wana do it in my car chriss ooowwwwww

[frogger]

I'm still struggling to see why there is a need for dimensions. Lipo technology is different and fast evolving. As long as the pack complies to the maximum nominal voltage and safety specs why would you want to limit how big or small it can be? It should be up to the driver to make it fit the way he or she wants to in whatever car they choose to run.

I for one want the biggest possible packs I can get so I need fewer of them. You should only charge a lipo at 1C and so the bigger capacity packs allows for faster top ups in between races. I would also prefer to use my saddle packs from my B44 in my B4 so again, I need fewer packs. It would make it absolutely pointless if I am allowed to run a saddle pack in my B44 side by side and then when put together they suddenly don't fit the maximum dimensions. Why compare them to stick NIMH packs, lipo is different?

We've been running lipo's in the BRCA Micro Nationals for the whole of last season and continue to do so this year again and the only specifications are the maximum nominal voltage. It allows good freedom of choice and all budgets to participate in lipo technology and we've not had any problems anywhere.

[SHY]

If you wish to do it your way, be my guest, but its Jimmy who id like to confirm - is this the right place for this topic? I think not. Be my guest. But the last time I checked this was an international discussion forum? Or am I wrong? Who's hurting? You don't have to comment on threads that you don't like or that doesn't interest you. Nor is it confidential or inapropriate. We are all experienced racers, and IMHO we can together make some thorough proposals. The EFRA representatives are ordinary people like you and me. I've even been offered a position there many years ago, goes to show how little it takes huh? ;)


how many of your proposals got through??? Most of them are now in the EFRA rule book, last year I handed in one which was also passed.

Now, it works like this:
First see the blank EFRA proposal form (it's posted it previously in this thread). There you specifically point to an existing paragraph for a given class. You then have 3 options:
-delete
-amend
-make a new rule

You cannot "link" proposals. You must have "single standing", complete proposals to vote on.

And it should be 100% accurate even down to the punctuation. You don't write "we want LiPo" and "leave the rest to EFRA". Actually, for anything to be seconded and then voted on it has to be formulated in advance. You normally don't do "bench proposals". And one tries to avoid to change the proposals at the AGM. For that to happen it has to do with something extraordinary. This is normally not done. And belive me, it get's late at those meetings so you just don't have the time.

Therefore I'm now just trying to make some complete alternatives to make it easier to vote over them. Get it?

Personally (as I've already said in this thread) I think it might be best to leave out the dimension rules. I still want to try and formulate an alternative with dimensions. If we are to restrict to dimensions, it'd better be as sensible as it can be.

If you guys could help me gather dimensions for as many hard cased lipos as possible that would be great!

Mark, what would you propose then if we were to have dimensions?

And any thoughts on the labeling?

Anyone know of similar products to the Lipo Sack that work well? (I ordered a ceramic "bunker" in november from Bishop Power Products, but I still haven't received the damn thing)

Finally, let's drop the attitude and be friends! This is model car racing! I just want some good input as to formulating some EFRA proposals. Chill out! :thumbsup:

[jimmy]

Absolutely international Shy - and hopefully more international later this year :thumbsup:, but maybe it's worth making a new thread about EFRA rule proposals? But then again, what do I know! :(

[Chrislong]

Wow, lots of info there. Not trying to be difficult, just trying to do whats right as we have some very useful/well informed people who represent us at the BRCA and this forum bypass's that resource.

Ok, good information. I am by no means an expert on Lipo so won't pretend to be able to be as thorough as it deserves with specification. But I will support any Lipo proposal, but my main interest is with the BRCA, as I do not race Efra events often (I last raced the Euro's in Austria, and the Belgium GP is not a true Efra GP - which doesn't take away any greatness, as it is an awesome event regardless).

I am expecting some Lipo's soon, will provide some dimensions shortly if this helps you :thumbsup:. From what I have been told reliably, most cells released are within sensible dimensions already but there may be 1 brand which has released a pack taller than what we should allow. Time will tell.

[SHY]

Thx mon! :) Yes, sorry. I know this was originally a thread about rumours of a 5 cell limit... so I kinda sidetracked it. But it's not the first sidetracked tread now is it? :lol: I'll try and make a dedicated thread next time!

oOple is the one and only good forum I know of, worldwide. So I really appreaciate it! Even if the UK race reports are none of my business I guess, I still enjoy them a lot as well! RcTech also has good activity, but it's a bit to US-oriented for a european IMO.

I've been hearing since I was a kid that "the club should change this", "the national association should change that", "EFRA should..." But it's really down to every one of us to make a difference! The super swede Dallas Mathiesen who is head of EFRA (and IFMAR) puts so much of his spare time into this that his wife has threatened to leave him many times. Believe me, they appreciate all the contributions they can get!

[SHY]

trakpowers is 70 x 47 x 30 for the 4900 and the 3200 will be 70x47x21ish,

saddle needs to be different. ie bit longer and taller

b44 takes the 4800 under the top deck so where did your measurements come from?


OK, so two saddles in series would make out 140 mm. When I measure the B4 it looks like it can take a full length of 143-144 mm. So we could maybe say 143 mm max length.

47 width is great, the B4 chassis can take 47,2-47,3 mm max.

But the height? We'd have to make a dummy to be 100% sure, but you say you can fit a 30mm tall pack without modifications into a B4? (not B44) To me it seems like approx. 25mm is max what you can get in there without modifications.

For 4WD cars I can't really see it being any problems in any case. Anyone?

Can someone with other 2WD makes do some measurements?

[mark christopher]

double post

[mark christopher]

y make a dummy i have a trakpower pack

whats the problem if you have to mod a car slightly? its "model" car racing most have modeling skills and companies already make lipo fit kits for cars
ill state again the 30mm trakpower will fit in the b4 by just rasing the bat strap posts, i have posted pics on this forum (look in associated thread)
they WILL also fit in a b44 by just lifting the batt straps, and the same for the d4 id you space the rear top deck 2mm up.

i have already suggested you get all the dimensions for lipo saddle off the manufactures site and go with that.
there is no point in making a rule that outlaws what is already available!

b4 http://www.oople.com/forums/showpost.php?p=110479&postcount=31

b44 http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10160

[Lee]

For 4WD cars I can't really see it being any problems in any case. Anyone?



I think the aero may have an issue regarding height, the drive shaft runs very close to the cells as it is, its not some thing that can be changed easily either:confused:

[SHY]

y make a dummy i have a trakpower pack

whats the problem if you have to mod a car slightly? its "model" car racing most have modeling skills and companies already make lipo fit kits for cars
ill state again the 30mm trakpower will fit in the b4 by just rasing the bat strap posts, i have posted pics on this forum (look in associated thread)
they WILL also fit in a b44 by just lifting the batt straps, and the same for the d4 id you space the rear top deck 2mm up.

i have already suggested you get all the dimensions for lipo saddle off the manufactures site and go with that.
there is no point in making a rule that outlaws what is already available!

b4 http://www.oople.com/forums/showpost.php?p=110479&postcount=31

b44 http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10160

OK, I'm working on getting all the specs right now.

B4: Ah! Brilliant, so you just put the top deck on top of the rear "dock" and problem solved!

You must not forget that most guys on this forum are experts. While the vast majority of racers are total noobs when it comes to mechanics. And the more "plug & play" things are, the better! The worst enemy IMHO as to getting more people into RC has always been cost and complexity. The Playstation Generation expect things to just work...

[SHY]

I think the aero may have an issue regarding height, the drive shaft runs very close to the cells as it is, its not some thing that can be changed easily either:confused:

I have the A-1 myself. I think if you dremel away the "grid" it will fit. But it may render the chassis a bit less stiff of course.

Or use a saddle lipo with less capacity and a lower profile so you can keep the grid.

Still working on the list... So far I've found that the Schumacher CORE 3250 actually is stated to be 48mm wide (http://www.rccaraction.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=E29CAE68A6D4457BA0FB171BEC7D56D2&nm=Site+Features&type=news&mod=News&mid=9A02E3B96F2A415ABC72CB5F516B4C10&). Can someone double-check that please?

[Lee]

Ok shy, lets just hope that there is no performance advantage from running a lipo. Personally i wouldnt go altering a chassis "flex" just to fit in a certain pack of cells, plus then there is the issue of adding weight to get the balance the same again.

This does not mean i wont propose it or vote on it, but i do feel it could be a sticking point for some:)

[SHY]

For OR you don't need the extra "performance". But the weight saving is a big plus, and hence you can be faster (not necessarily). I'm sure you can still win races with NiMH batteries.

Personally I'm just fed up with NiMH. Expensive and too much hassle. Not to mention all the expensive charging and matching equipment. For instance that &%¤=}@! Spintec ICC charger... :lol: I think I'll use a sledge hammer on it next year...

LiPo technology is inexpensive and very user friendly. And for practice and fun you get fantastic long runtimes.

[mark christopher]

lee read this thread http://www.rcracechat.com/vb/showthread.php?p=330272#post330272

the trakpower 3200 is slimmer than than nimh pack

[JCJC]

that &%¤=}@! Spintec ICC charger... :lol: I think I'll use a sledge hammer on it next year...

They will be cheap secondhand next year if this is passed, sledge hammer may bring more satisfaction:)


Love this proposal :thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Lee]

lee read this thread http://www.rcracechat.com/vb/showthread.php?p=330272#post330272

the trakpower 3200 is slimmer than than nimh pack


Cheers mark, someone Pm`d me saying this, but isnt a 3200 lipo similar to a 4200 nimh?

[RogerM]

y make a dummy i have a trakpower pack

whats the problem if you have to mod a car slightly? its "model" car racing most have modeling skills and companies already make lipo fit kits for cars
ill state again the 30mm trakpower will fit in the b4 by just rasing the bat strap posts, i have posted pics on this forum

Just checked my RB5 and you'd not get anything more than 25 tall under the strap. You would have to make up a new hold down plate for the rear, which would require a milling machine to do in a way that wouldn't look aweful or more importantly damage the speedo wires!

[mark christopher]

Cheers mark, someone Pm`d me saying this, but isnt a 3200 lipo similar to a 4200 nimh?
same foot print but it will be about 21 tall i f i remember corectly

[mark christopher]

Just checked my RB5 and you'd not get anything more than 25 tall under the strap. You would have to make up a new hold down plate for the rear, which would require a milling machine to do in a way that wouldn't look aweful or more importantly damage the speedo wires!


ok so in that case buy a stick for your 2wd!, tho im dam sure 3 wires can be re routed:confused:
to me the brca looks like it will move a hole up like i did with my b4

http://www.oople.com/rc/photos/reviewrb5x/electrics02.jpg



remember you need one or two packs, so compared to nimh packs 2 saddle and two stick tops is stell cheaper over a year, and this will last 2 years for racing with no drop off

[SHY]

OK, here's what I was able to find out about the ROAR list:

http://www.ymr.no/efra/lipo.pdf

Can someone help me double-check?

It's just not good enough that neither are the dimensions on the ROAR page nor on the page of the manufacturer in some cases.

Note that no saddle packs are on the ROAR list. And a FlightPower 4800 saddle is 30 mm high! (while a 4900 stick from the same manufacturer is only 23 mm high).

Does anyone know of any hard cased saddles that are less than 25 mm high?

I'd like an EFRA list with:
-dimensions
-configuration (stick/saddle)
-pictures of both sides
-balance port yes/no
-plug type/dim
-nubs yes/no/removable/dim
-suitable charger recommended by manufacturer (?)

Cheers

[mark christopher]

OK, here's what I was able to find out about the ROAR list:

http://www.ymr.no/efra/lipo.pdf

Can someone help me double-check?

It's just not good enough that neither are the dimensions on the ROAR page nor on the page of the manufacturer in some cases.

Note that no saddle packs are on the ROAR list. And a FlightPower 4800 saddle is 30 mm high! (while a 4900 stick from the same manufacturer is only 23 mm high).

Does anyone know of any hard cased saddles that are less than 25 mm high?

I'd like an EFRA list with:
-dimensions
-configuration (stick/saddle)
-pictures of both sides
-balance port yes/no
-plug type/dim
-nubs yes/no/removable/dim
-suitable charger recommended by manufacturer (?)

Cheers

ok last time as you not listening

why over complicate it if its 7.4volts or below and fits in the car what else is needed??

1/ can you start a seperate thread for effra rules
2/ thats why i have said there needs to be seperate consideration for saddle
3/YES the trakpower 3200 saddle is about 21mm tall

as the efra agm is after the BRCA's then just write your proposal "lipo clells to be allowed as the BRCA rules"

we in the uk will get it right as we leave it to the profesional boffin at the EB who i believe efra use!

[SHY]

Mark, can you please seriously consider dropping that hostile attitude?

It is perfectly possible to communicate in a sivilized manner on a discussion forum.

Do you speak to people in the same way?

Now that we already have this in this thread there's not much point in making a new one. I already said I will do so the next time. If an admin wants to take out the relevant content and move it, that's fine with me of course.

Still, if you oppose so much to what I am writing why don't you just forget about continuing reading and posting in this thread? Do you watch TV programs that you don't like?

Gimme a break dude!

[mark christopher]

Mark, can you please seriously consider dropping that hostile attitude?

It is perfectly possible to communicate in a sivilized manner on a discussion forum.

Do you speak to people in the same way?

Now that we already have this in this thread there's not much point in making a new one. I already said I will do so the next time. If an admin wants to take out the relevant content and move it, that's fine with me of course.

Still, if you oppose so much to what I am writing why don't you just forget about continuing reading and posting in this thread? Do you watch TV programs that you don't like?

Gimme a break dude!
dude that aint hostile!
but if your going to come on here asking opinions, then have the courtesy to read whats written, several time i have answered your questions, and posted about trakpowers 3200 saddle pack dimensions, that you can fit saddle in a b4 and b44 yet your ignored that till i was forced to post a link to the pictures.
i can assure you im not the only one getting tiered of this crusade your on!!!!

[SHY]

i can assure you im not the only one getting tiered of this crusade your on!!!!

Still not hostile?

Can you please explain in english what you are talking about?

P.S. 1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d

[mark christopher]

you carry on fella, im leaving you on your crusade, hope you get what ever you want passed in EFRA, im just pleased your in Norway and not England, let our lads sort out our BRCA rules, you look after EFRA

[SHY]

you carry on fella, im leaving you on your crusade, hope you get what ever you want passed in EFRA, im just pleased your in Norway and not England, let our lads sort out our BRCA rules, you look after EFRA

Well it seems like we finally agree on something :lol: I wouldn't like to be an immigrant around your parts!

Just out of curiosity: When have I ever said that I want to mess with your precious BRCA rules? You can power your car with a rubber band in "non-Europe" for all I care! All I wanted was for someone to pass an EFRA proposal to allow LiPo.

And you still owe me an explanation as to your "crusade" accusations. I said I want to try and send in some EFRA rule change proposals via the Norwegian federation. And I wanted some different opinions and knowledge from this forum. Why does that bother you so much?

[mark christopher]

dude that aint hostile!
but if your going to come on here asking opinions, then have the courtesy to read whats written, several time i have answered your questions, and posted about trakpowers 3200 saddle pack dimensions, that you can fit saddle in a b4 and b44 yet your ignored that till i was forced to post a link to the pictures.
i can assure you im not the only one getting tiered of this crusade your on!!!!

you carry on fella, im leaving you on your crusade, hope you get what ever you want passed in EFRA, im just pleased your in Norway and not England, let our lads sort out our BRCA rules, you look after EFRA
.................................................. .

[SHY]

Here's the proposal from my local club, which has been handed in to our national federation:
www.ymr.no/efra/LiPo_Proposal1_2008.pdf

Objective feedback is highly appreciated. Personal remarks I can do well without :)

[Lee]

I think that is clear and to the point.

I dont think we would need the technical bit though as we have the electric board who i am sure have looked at lipo`s closely and probably have some sort of revision ready for next year.

Im sure our proposal will be similar though, simple and easy with nothing that people can pick holes in and then let the people who know, do their bit :thumbsup:

Im really not sure if we need lipo though, brushed motors are still winning nationals :lol:

[Gayo]

It looks good to me. I like the 'rapid disassembly' thing :lol:

[SHY]

Should be no problem for this class. I'm very uncertain as to touring and 1:12 OTOH... haven't seen any good proposals or technical solutions for that yet... (4,8 and 6 volt)

@Lee: it's just an option. You can still run NiMH and brushed motors. I'll give you a bargain in 2009 ;)

[Alfonzo]

Seems good Shy. Following this thread, I'm not entirely sure why you've received such a rough time. Lack of manners, if nothing else.

[SHY]

Seems good Shy. Following this thread, I'm not entirely sure why you've received such a rough time. Lack of manners, if nothing else.

Thx! Copy that! :lol:

Some people loose all manners either behind a steering wheel or a PC... Imagine if people could post on forums while driving... :lol:

[SHY]

Our national federation has now approwed the proposal and will send it to EFRA before the deadline end of august. So now we'll just have to wait and see in november...