BRCA Regulations - Cell Dimensions 2008
 

Hello,

I've heard a few things mentioned about how some of the cells on the current BRCA list will not be legal in 2008, due to cell dimensions?

Can anyone clarify which cells may be affected?

I will be looking to buy some new cells early next year for the '08 season, when will the '08 regs be announced?

Thanks,

Chris.

No idea which are gonna become illegal, but my IB4200's are stupid tight in my B4...

haha! Mine are very tight too. I thought I got one set stuck yesterday!

My IB's are going in the bin soon though. I've been scared of them for ages!

I've just ordered some GrePow 4200's, to give them ago before I buy next season's cells.

I think that is a bit dodgy, you can't then make something illegel retrospectively, they were legal when homologated, you can't then make them illegal.

I agree with DCM's sentiment however the rule makers can make any rule they can reasonably justify!!. The problem with that however is people who have only recently had to purchase cells (like myself) could be seriously out of pocket if they are retrospectively banned. Doesn't stop me being ultra cautious with them!!!!

There is also the issue of poor availability of the alternative cells so some people may not be able to buy anything other than IBs. I tried to get alternatives before buying my IBs and it was no go .. :(

I seem to remember it being mentioned that when something is on the list it is on the list so I guess that means it's unlikely for the IBs to be taken off. That said I would guess by equal logic any other cells supplied for homologation that pushed the rules a little too far may not get through.

All that said if the BRCA think there is a real safety issue then that would over ride anything else. Playing devil's advocate however which is dagerous, the cells or the charge methods some people try and use???????????

In my experience the BRCA and the electrc board in particular are sensible people so there will be no knee jerk reactions or flakey decissions, just good sense based on solid data. At the last Kiddy winter round Paul gave some very sensible advice about working with IBs in relation to some of the issues posted on line in the preceeding weeks. We went on and had a good days racing with everybody happy with what we had been told, at least that was my impression.

Well have to wait and see I guess, hopefully it won't be too long or else we won't be able to ask for new cells for Christmas!!!! :)

people got it in there head about charging at high amps for performance, cause the GP33's would take it, but the new ones don't.

I hope sense is seen after just buying five packs of IB42's

Nothing is being made illegal, it's just EFRA has voted to start enforcing the rules on cell dimensions. It never bothered with measuring them before as it wasn't deemed necessary, after all you would think the cell manufacturers would stick to the ISO standards. The national associations have decided to follow suit.

The rules that have always been in the rule books since the 70s state that a batterys dimensions must be a diameter of 23.0mm +0/-1mm, overall length 43mm +0/-1.5mm. These are international standards governing the size of sub-C cells and the battery manufacturers have been taking liberties regarding the size tolerances as the capacity has increased. If the cells already meet the international standards then they will be legal in the future, if they are too big (like IB4200s) they will be banned. Just try measuring some of your cells to see if they actually fit in the current rules.

At least it would guarantee any batteries you buy in future will definitely fit in your chassis.

May I add this to Terry's post...

The Rules are not being changed. The dimensions are as they have always been. However, there is also a Rule that says that cells may be up to 44mm long AFTER charging, so that any distortion of the cell is taken into account. This was put in because some cells did distort (look at the base of the cell, they 'bell' out a bit on some) and it was not BRCA/EFRA's intention that drivers were disqualified because of something largely outside their control.

However, some cell manufacturer's took liberties, and made cells that 'borrowed' length from the 44mm Rule. BRCA/EFRA seem to have decided that they should go back to the 43mm Rule, including any distortion.

This change was made in 2006, and it was posted in the Rule books (EB Rule 3.1, EFRA Rule Appendix 3 - 3.1). It has been coming for 14 months, and now it is here. Orion have noticed this, and have developed a cell that seems to be (only pictures posted so far) about 42.4mm long, allowing for any distortion to keep the cell under 43mm.

So, it isn't a sudden change, and arguably it isn't retrospective. However, no one can say they weren't warned! Whatever your view, it wouldn't surprise me to find that the new list effective from 1 April 2008 does not have cells on it that cannot comply to the original Rules, including the removal of the '44mm allowance' agreed and published in 2006. HTH :)

hmm, :confused: deleted origional thoughts!!

what cells are being removed from legal list (BANNED) can we now so we can make provisions to be legal come april fools day:wtf:

I don't care what they do, i can't afford to replace cells I have only just bought, so if they do fall off the list, BRCA can shove it where the sun don't shine!!

DCM,if you joined the BRCA ,then YOU are a part of the BRCA,if you want to change something in the rules you must go to the AGM and sound out your arguments there or get someone who is going to do it for you.
The BRCA ,is mainly racers trying to do thier best for all of us.

All i have to say is they need to get this sorted ASAP!

Today at the NE indoor regional one pack of Vtecs (the new version ones!!!??) exploded on someones pit table, which was right next to the rostrum, with a woman and a child close by. A serious close call as the cells exploded in the opposite direction with a huge bang - similar to a firework!

Then a few hours afterward another pack of cells started smoking popping and sizzling.. lucky enough they didnt go bang and the driver responsibly placed them outside to let them simmer away.

This really does need sorting as the cell situation is getting out of hand now. I can honestly say today was the first time i've been nervous around cells.

oh,and if the cells you have just bought are dropped,why not sell them to bashers or club drivers and purchace new legal ones? no need to be nasty about it?
:(

As soon as the EB guys make a decision, then im sure we'll know very very quickly.... afterall its an important issues...

Just think of the club guys who rely on buying 2nd hand cheap good cells from the sponsorred lads, and those of us who make cells lasts 1-2+ years.... this is going to be a big hit in the wallet... and a kick to BRCA governed events (we'll still run whatever we want at club ofcause, including Lipo).

Then there'll be the potential cell shortage if we're forced away from IB's to whatever brand is within the dimensions.... 100's of us ordering several packs within the first few weeks of the news I guess.... chaos?

So, this in mind, im confident that whatever decision is made will be deeply thought and for the right reasons..

Oh, and today a cell went bang at Batley, it was a Vtec 4200 being charged at 6amp, was cool and had no more than 2000mah in it after being equalised... :(..(wasn't me btw).

Chris

Because why would they buy them, they will need legal ones for Regionals?

to be honest the brca should issue a list of legal cells come april fools day with the copy of your brca license issued january it would be at least time to obtain legal stuff and yes dcm is right if youve just spent a load of cash on cells it is crap:confused:

dude, you just have NO IDEA do you. I have been a member of the BRCA since 1988, and the EB is voted in to enforce and manage the rules. if they decide tomorrow that IB4200 are illegal, I am screwed, and so are lots of other people in the same boat. It is attitudes like yours that get us in this predicament 'just flog em and buy more', not exactly constructive OR helpful.

I then have to look at losing at least 33% of the value, so right away I am out of pocket, then I got to try and get five packs of the legal ones. Then I have three kids racing, who would need furnishing in cells, as they have my old cells, problem compounded.

I can feel a big expense going on, RC is expensive enough without new batteries! I was planning to start using my packs for 5 cells as cells go dead too!

Just so I know, what exactly are the legal alternatives at the moment?

Which is absolutely what we have all been told NOT to do. Didn't anyone think to remind drivers at briefing, and post copies of the EB advice on the results board?

It's all very well moaning about what is going to happen, but when are racers going to be responsible about this and follow advice when its given? (see the item "Advice on using NiMh cells") Characteristic of these events is high charge rates.

For those who have forgotten the procedure, the cell list is usually issued around the first week of January, leaving almost three months before the cells are 'legal' for BRCA Nationals. And that list has no direct impact on cells being used at Clubs.

If this means that we reduce these incidents to almost nothing, isn't that a small price for the inconvenience this causes. Compared to investing in LiPo, or having some other organisation make H&S Rules for me, this is a preferable course of action.

Its ok, i got hit by a piece of exploding battery and it doesn`t hurt it just gives you a little black mark as a reminder.


Cells are safe again:D

Yep, Northy did a great job of bringing up the subject, but this happened Pre-briefing. This guy isn't one who reads the forums or even has the internet, so I guess he hadn't been pre-informed..... I did mention to him all the advice when we had a chat, and later on I asked him about his settings and he'd gone to 4.5amp asof the "bang".

What suprised me is how early in the charge which it went up.

I sympathise with DCM.

Whats the chances of no rule change atall happening like rumoured? :(

personaly, I can appreciate the rule being changed as of cells being homologated come April, but those already on the list should be left, as at the time, they were cleared by the EB.

I think its funny how suddenly its a common occurence for cells to blow up???

I have run 4200`s for 2 years now and hammered them in touring cars, charging @10 amps at times:yawn: (if needed) and never saw one go pop, why are they just starting to go bang, what has changed, people are treating them no different as far as i know.

I understood this bit Dude.

If manufacturers are making explosives for you to handle surely it is them who is to blame,not the BRCA? should they not be re-called? if you have no confidence in the saftey of a product,surely you should take it back to where it was bought from?
The main point here is safety,surely?
DCM,how would you feel if a pack blows up near one of YOUR children?

Probably inferior quality cells to keep up with demand?

Hi all, I am the person who's VTEC Cells went bang at Batley today. first off I must point out that I have been racing for 19 years, and those that know me know just how much detail I put in, in to making sure that all the equipment I use is being used as it should be and is always in top condition.

After every one had finished talking to me about what had happened and had finished taking the pis*!, I went through all the settings on the charger, just in case it was because of the charger. I thought I was charging the pack on '6'amps, but it was actually charging at '4.9'amps with the cut off set at 5mV. The pack was fresh off the discharge tray and all the cells had been equalised down to 1.0V. At the time the pack went bang they had just got to 2100mah! All the remaining cells were cool to the touch, apart from the one next to the exploding cell. I have four of these packs, they are all top quality packs and they are all only six meetings old! Needless to say the rest of the packs went back in to the battery box and were not used for fear of the same thing happening again!

I can tell you that when the pack went it had enough force to blow all of the tools and some wheels and tyres off the table!

As far as I am concerned, it is not myself who is at fault for the pack blowing up! It is quite clear that some of the VTEC / IB 4200 cells are faulty! And after seeing what can happen, I now have no confidence or faith in using these cells! And can only be grateful that no one was stood next to the table when it went, as the pack gave little to no warning before it went!

And as for selling the packs on to club racers! I could not live with myself knowing that I had just sold on batteries that could potentially cause harm or damage to another racer and/or there equipment!

As has been said above the 'they' regarding the BRCA includes you. The EB isn't a secret organisation, it's just 3 r/c racers like you, who follow the rules which are voted for by the members of the BRCA. They don't force their own rules on the racers, the racers decide all the rules and vote for them at the AGM. This rule was change was added over a year ago and if you aren't happy you could have either voted against it then or voted to have it removed at the last AGM. There has been plenty of advance warning as this rule change was listed in last years BRCA handbook. The rules have been the same every year, the batteries and motors that are homologated for next years racing are only listed the 1st January that year, so even if the batteries fit the dimensions there is no guarantee they will be on next years homologation list. This happens every year, not just this one. Personally if I was planning on racing in BRCA sanctioned events I would wait until nearer the start of the season, based on recent experience of the lifetime of IB4200s there's a good chance you would need to buy new batteries next spring anyway.

The problem seems to me you have bought new cells now which you bought to use for next years racing and you are unhappy that they will not be legal for racing. But you could buy the cells now and IB submit 4500mah cells to the EB, now you are looking at replacing your cells again but this time it's for the extra performance. I realise your situation isn't common, with having to buy extra sets for your children, but as they use your old cells I presume they don't need top spec packs so there is a cost saving there.

There's also the fact that for club racing it is down to the individual clubs to decide what batteries they allow, the BRCA can't dictate to the clubs. Also IB4200s might still be allowed in BRCA sanctioned events due to the quantities in circulation, like the EP4200s this year when plenty of the non homologated version were sold as BRCA legal. We'll just have to wait and see what is and isn't allowed.

Not a sudden occurrence, exploding IB4200s have been known since the beginning of the yearhttp://www.rcracechat.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27232
and I've certainly been recommending to my club members to avoid IB4200s since spring. It is becoming more common lately as IB seem to be tweaking the cells to get more performance out of them and the BRCA website has a list of the batches of the cells more likely to explode.

I'm glad neither you nor anyone else were hurt. Nonetheless, when the manufacturer says charge at 1C (4.2A) and you usually charge at 6A, and when you thought it was 6A but it wasn't (and could just as easily have been higher) why do you think this was not your fault?

The one thing these incidents have in common is a high charge rate, and much higher (up to 50%, like yours) than IB recommend. I agree (and so do IB, they've recommended that some cells not be used) that there is a fault somewhere, but charging at 6A isn't helping the situation.

Has anyone managed to find the IB batch codes on VTEC cells? I've checked mine closely and can't find any, which doesn't help me identify if I have any on the list posted on the BRCA site. Any clues, anyone...:confused:

even if IB brought out new cells, I wouldn't go and buy them, my last IB cells lasted 2 years, and still going ok, just not a fresh set of legs on them anymore. I don't buy cells for that cutting edge, and most people don't either.

The EB has power to enforce rules as it see's fit (re- soldering batteries), and as far as I am concerned, I bought legal cells, so i shall still use them.

yes you can possibly until april. then depending if you want to be a BRCA member and race at there events and depending on if the cells are made illegal you can't...

your choice...

same as any other motor sport...do you think honda would get away with using traction control next year because they bought it before it was banned!

the BRCA would only do this for safety grounds if there's any chance that these cells will harm people then IMHO they should be banned

thinking about it, I would only suffer if I were to run at a BRCA event to BRCA rules, as I only run local, it doesn't matter, and as I remember, Jim Spencer has pointed out that we are insured either way, up to a 25cc engine.

I think this is not my fault, because of the 'User Guide' that came with the Cells! The Guide says to charge the cells at 5-5.5amps with a cut off of 15mV. The charger I was using to to charge the cells was bought new when I got the cells, the setting were 'never' changed to 6amps! and all of the pack have only ever been charged at 4.9amps with the cut off at 5mV. This is .6amp and 10mV on the safe side of what the 'manufacturer' recommends!!

Thanks Chris, I read out all the current best practise guidlines from the BRCA EB at drivers breifing, and stuck them up next to the heat listing, but as has been said this happened during practise.

I accept your appology though SlowOne, it's ok......:mad::mad:

G

Way off topic now,but re size of engines,it is actually 30cc max as stated in general rules in the hand book.

so, either way, covered, just won't be able to do a national event.... bummer... lol

I must admit, this ocurance of Mark's is probably the most worrying one that i have heard.

So far we have been told that the problem is caused by certain cells peaking in a pack before the others, but not having enough effect on the overall pack delta voltage. This was an explanation that i could happily accept. However, a cell peaking at 2000mAh?? seems unlikely - unless that cell was effectively dead anyway. So based on this, how would you know..................... As it happens in this case, i would struggle to blame the user.

EB rule changes are an interesting subject, as the membership does not have a direct say on them. They are not voted directly at the AGM. Now i know each section has their representation, but for anyone to say that we all have a say in them is stretching a point a little.

Now I'm not saying this is what happened to Marks cells, but just thought I would mention it.

Several times I have put cells on my smart tray, pressed the button, and one LED goes out straight away. I've removed the cells, squeezed in the tabs, tried again and that cell discharges like all the others. :rolleyes:

Just a heads up while we're on the subject. I suppose if this happened to someone, they were using their smart tray to discharge quite a bit out of the cells and they didn't realise, then that cell would be overcharged.

G

It is a very good point G. I have some tekin boards which have dead LED's and im nervous of using them... infact my old cells deteriorated very fast but seem to become lively again since using the Smart tray.... I regret that I delayed using the Smart tray as my cells were soldered in reverse polarity for it, but ive slowly switched my packs over and wish id done it long ago.

I can vouch for Mark, he is a very careful guy. personally I wouldn't doubt that Mark had his cells connected properly, but a valid point to raise for people to take note of.