NiMh or Lipo????
 

Ok, we all know what we can and can not run for 2008 and that is how it will be.

What I am interested in is what people think about Lipo and if they would run them if they could ......

So what is your current preference .... Lipo or NiMh???? Forget 'the list', forget what series your planning on racing in 2008 ...... just answer with your preference as if there were no lists or series restrictions (and why if you like).

I am just interested in peoples thoughts on the matter as with any potential technology change it will give rise to other changes along the way.

from what I understand, if you intend to race regionals, you will not be able to score points in off-road.

NiMh - I fear change :woot:

G

Lipo.....because i am a lazy racer :p

the only maintenance i do on my car between races now is to either mend it or re-adjust the camber, or i might change the tyres if the ones i have on stop gripping.

I run brushless so i dont have to skim, and i run lipos because i dont have to be particularly careful charging them (obviously i follow manufacturers recommendations) or nursing them to keep them in tip top condition....just balance charge 'em and race 'em. no difference in performance from race to race.

super. :thumbsup:

all ways one...........................................

you did read his post?

In fairness to DCM it was his response which prompted my edit as I'd obviously not made myself clear enough!!!

Lipo all the way, there's no reason not to prefer it. As far as I can see there is no disadvantage to running it. You can use one pack all day and gives a more relaxed days racing.

I think they could be run along side NiMH in off-road, as they offer no performance advantage in this class. The cells are light weight, but both would be run to the same weight limits. The performance advantage makes no difference as off-road cars can easily be over-powered. Unless you are running the quickest motors you can buy and still want more power, there is no reason to complain about any performance advantage.

It would be interesting to know why people have voted NiMH as their preference? Or if anyone knows of a disadvantage of running Lipo, or Lipo/NiMH alongside each other?

I can see Lipo as the future, but i voted undecided as I have yet to try them. Nimh have been great for the sport but im in the boat where something has to be tried and tested for perhaps a season by those with the means to not to be bothered if something goes wrong.....Unlike me.

As said before LIPO allll the way. I agree with Tom C. We've both tried them and neither of us can really tell any difference. Its just much less hassle.

Bring them on

:D

Whats your problem Mark, was purely pointing out a plain fact, as plain as the nose on your face. I voted undecided, as my club indoors don't allow them as yet, and regionals are out with Lipo, so until I find a venue to race them, I am undecided.

So wind your freaking lipo neck in lol :-)

lipo

ah ok i only read your edited post!

not a lipo neck it was the fact he had put forget any serries or rules etc, if you could would you, grranted the post was different before you replied to when i did

Mark

Lipo!!! :thumbsup:
As stated by Tom, plus it makes the hobby far more enjoyable in that there is less 'wisdom' required in NIMH voodoo rubbish keeping them feeling good for more than half a dozen charges, so any newby, oldby or donkey can suss them out.

As for the rules. I emailed Charlie Fraser about proposing them and got a great answer (thanks Charlie), which i will copy and paste below:

Hi Chris.

Thanks for your mail re Lipo adoption - no proposals in this regard have been received for the 2008 AGM. PW has just writen out a clarification to Regional Reps as to why they can NOT be used in regional events in 2008 - Stu Evans will have this. From this it is clear that "Electric Board" Rules 3.1 will need alteration to enable use of Lipo cells in 2009 as currently only NICD and NIMH cells are mentioned as being allowed.



The Electric Board deals for all Electric Sections so the board will be watching closely the "support" TC national class running Lipo in 2008 to learn as much as possible, therby enabling appropriate EB rule changes when and if required. In this regard the "safety" implications of adopting this product will be thoroughly investigated.



Turning to 1/10th Off-Road, like any other electric section, we can adopt or otherwise any power source (allowed by the EB) by voting it in at our AGM. So a long answer to your question is that a simple rule change proposal for our section AGM as you outline would be a good place to start ( I believe the EB works for the Electric sections so the EB rule change can be put in place retrospectively, driven by those electric sections who have voted at their AGM to adopt Lipo power in 2009).



I believe the above discribes the way change happens, and look forward to receiving a rule change proposal from you at the appropriate time. Lets hope by that time we have enjoyed a really good season.

Regards

Charlie Fraser

Sec. BRCA 1/10th Off-Road Section.

lipo, easy to use not as stroppy as cells and last longer if looked after properley.

the prices are coming down and with 2 packs (£50 ea) you can run a days racing no problems.

I'm undecided on lipo sacks as they dont allow you observe the pack when its being charged.




20 yrs time we'll be having this thread about micro cold fusion packs :woot:

voted nimh only because lipo won't fit in an s4 :(

I have been using Li-Poly cells and was one of the early adopters of these cells when I was running my Ikarus Piccollo helicopter. We started with Taradan cells and ripping cells from mobile phones.

Then came the early Kokham cells which could not really deliver much current and you had to try and solder directly to the tags which required special solder and was really hard to do, thankfully they then started to make them with a PCB. I have never had any problems with these types of cells in approx 7 years of use. The only time I ruined packs was when I took them too low in voltage whilst flying but apart from some expansion there was no massive explosion or anything else.

The new li poly cells that I now own for the cars and helicopters all are very stable and I really hate the horror stories that you hear regarding these type of cells as I feel that if you take care of your cells and make sure you adhere to the precautions then you should never have a problem. I think this really shows as for years we have been abusing NiCad and NiMH cells by using very high fast charging and repeaking currents way over 1C so much so that we are now seeing exploding cells.

I am looking forward to the BRCA EB looking into Lipo for 2009 as it really does make the hobby easier as I can see that all this matching, equalising can be off putting the beginners and it can also put them off when they cannot afford decent batteries to be as competetive as others.

Not sure I understand this ? is he saying the "support" class is the pro-stock class ?

Anyway, that aside, Lipo all the way for me !

Chris

Lipo all the way!

A friend lent me his two 5000mAh lipos for an indoor race and i really liked the power delivery, the weight advantage which let me put weight where I wanted it and the fact they were cold after the run.

Charging them was a piece of cake as well with a balancer. No hassle getting them full as I could just top them up and in 7 minute heats I only consumed about 2200mAh. No discharging, no 0V cells to worry about and no worries of them going bang in a big way.

A bit miffed we can't run them at nationals here in Germany... Belgium and Holland are a bit more open to the subject unless I misunderstood something.

I think what he means is that the Electric Board (aka.The Electric Section of BRCA), will be watching what support Lipo receives from the drivers and how it performs. As TC nationals in 2008 allow Lipo & Cells to run side by side - and so we can observe. So if all goes pear shaped, Lipo-no no for 2009.

I didn't read it that way!
What I thought it meant was that TC modified is the main event and TC stock (or whatever it's called) is the support class - just like F1 being the main event and TOCA touring cars being support to them

p.s. voted lipo

I've voted undecided, and i'll tell you why.

At the moment, LiPo hasn't been used in any "competative" race series, and you could argue that this isn't going to change in 2008 - because yes technically the touring car pro stock series is considdered "the support".

However, i have this view that because of this - there would seem to have been little/no development. Many People are using their Orion platignm packs (one of the first to be released i believe) and they are competative and similar in running to anything on the market. Someone correct me if i'm wrong.

Anyway, i believe that as soon as they are allowed in a "premier" class - we will see an upward development path the like of which we have never seen before.

Anyone remember the first NiMh cells?? We were told that NiMh was much more stable than NiCad, there was no need to discharge, no need to equalise, be much easier for racers - the end of our worries. Any of this sound familar?? How does that compare to where we are with NiMh now?? - in the space of 7 ish years (could be out on time).

So i'll hold my hands up to being very cynical!!! :eh?:

I'd kind of quite like it if i was proved wrong, because that would mean tha tLiPo had solved all our problems and things were much easier.........we'll see i guess.

where's the nicad option lol

I voted Nimh its not that im anti lipo i just havent tried it yet so i cant really comment.

A

But by voting you have commented Ash, surely if you have no experience of one option then undecided would be best?

Matt, I see where you are coming from and agree we were sold NiMH as the end of all our problems. Lipo are starting to become more common in big races in the US so we should see some Lipo development soon, and with big companies releasing Lipo's there will become a competitive market for them.

Will this development effect off-road? I believe that off-road cars can be so over-powered with Lipo packs that we don't need the latest and greatest packs. With the power we have now we are limting it with slipper clutches. Using Lipo will just give a more relaxed days racing IMO. Obviously not everyone will agree with me.

LiPo has solved all of our problems. It's just we can't run LiPo to prove it. LiPo, and indeed the other Lithium technologies, are by no means new, I have been using them in aircraft for years now. And the RC aircraft market is factors times bigger then the car market, so RC cars running them won't push the technology along any faster. And we all have Lithium cells in our laptops and mobile phones.

£40 got me a balancing charger capable of up to 5 cell (18.5V) and that's the only cost people will incur. No discharging trays and all that rubbish you need with NiCad and NiMH. There is NO memory effect, no need to discharge them etc. NiMH is an odd technology, as we weren't lied to. You don't need to discharge NiMH, and the cell life remains the same. Similarly there is no memory effect in NiMH either. People interpreted this as you will still get maximum performance without cycling the cells, which is not the case as we all know. So just because people misunderstood the meaning behind the marketing of NiMH technology doesn't mean that LiPo will suddenly get worse with improvements in technology. In fact that's kind of an oxymoron.

So yes Matt, you are being too cynical lol! Embrace the LiPo goodness :D

well at the moment as i havent tried lipo i preffer nimhlol

A

so the worksop serries is not competative?
we have world champs, euro champs, national A finalists running lipo along side nimh

dont forget lipo has been in planes for years, they have devloped packs ,, they are ultra competative one reason they are sorted now, cars put far less strain on them compared to planes

correct me if im wrong but the development on nimh was done by cars racers as a new technology? lipo is not new!

what is interesting is there are top level drivers voting for lipo, take a look at the results

Super stock is a support class for the BRCA National (modified). And as for the class, the top guys will all be running brushless and Lipo, as there is an advantage. simple as.

regards to electric flight and the use of LiPo, I believe the BMFA has brought in specific regulations regarding the use of and charging of LiPo, they also see them as potentialy MORE hazardous due to the flamability of the cell over Nicd and NiMH.

I think LiPo will be the future, but there is so much non-lipo equipment out there, it is managing that issue that poses the biggest issue to me, not the current racer who has new chargers and esc's that are LiPo enabled. This is why I am still undecided on it, I like the idea, but the though of seeing them being used incorrectly kinda un-nerves me about it.

Guys guys guys - go and read Charlies email I pasted - there is no mention of stock, super stock, he just mentions TC nationals and "support". Your all running away with what Chris Dono said without reading Charlies email and digesting it.. LOL..

Has anyone had a set of Lipo cells go bang? Lets hear about it. I keep hearing about the "Could happen" but no actuals.

Thanks Chris ...... that is the sort of thing I wanted to hear about ... positive and negative experiences .. real experiences.

I am personally very unsure about the LiPo revolution everybody is predicting, not if it will happen but if it should.

The one major upside of course is that if you want to run a perfectly balanced (side-side) 4wd car your going to have to run a car that can have a stick type Lipo down one side as the weight of a Lipo (from TrackPowers website) is almost identical to the electrical kit you would have on the other side of the chassis.

I can only think of two 4wds that can do that out of the box, Durga or ZX5-SP ...... :D

What will the Atomic boys do? Can LiPos fit under the centre shaft on the Durango inspired cars?

All interesting stuff.

Roger, I think the idea of allowing LiPo does not mean dis-allowing NiMh.

and the worksop series has proved that they can run side-by-side in off-road quite easily.

Actually with minimal modding, a stick pack fits an X5 too ;)

I appreciate that Chris ....... just asking questions .....

Guess your answer would be to stay "Atomized" and run NiMhs then .... good choice IMHO .. ;)

The only time where I have heard of Li-Poly explosive accidents is usually when the settings on the charger have not been set correctly i.e. Still in NiCad or NiMH mode, cell count incorrect, charging higher than 1C.

I think LiPo should be used where ever possible.
With regards to the LiPo's being used incorrectly point from above...how many times have you sat next to a racer in the pits who's been charging his IB4200's at 6A? That can be labelled as 'incorrect' use as much as someone attempting to charge a LiPo off a NiMh charger.
I think there are enough scare stories out there that anyone who actually buys a LiPo pack will know well enough to research the products and correct operating methods.

Lipos are becoming the norm in US racing and apear to be a positive change.
As a racer returning from 10 years off I can say the outlay for 4+packs of cells versus 1 - 2 packs of Lips is a no brains call.

When you take into account the cost of a novak or much more discharge tray for cells the price has just hit the roof!!

given the choice right now I would take up Lipo and laugh at the fact that I haven't just spent £400 not counting my top level charger..

If you have two packs strapped into two cars (2wd and 4wd) you could even run two classes in the same day at a club race. (they do in the US)

If you think about that it just makes sense!

Regarding them been dangerous. The rules Roar have enforced for the packs to pass there tests are pretty strict as far as I can tell, this includes over-charging them to see what happens and a drop test. With these tests in place only packs that will be legal will be the safer ones. Most have seen what happens when a NiMH is over-charged and its not particularly safe :o

Regarding the NiMH/Lipo performance debate, I cannot honeslty see a performance disadvantage to running NiMH as I feel any off-road car can be over-powered as it is, unless you are currently running the quickest motors you can buy and still wnat more power you have no reason to complain on this front. Therefore cars that can only run NiMH will not have a disadvantage and a new car can be properly developed to allow the use of Lipo or both cells.

I voted Lipo

I only started racing last year and I have moved from the old borrowed nicd/nimh cells I was using and upgraded to Lipo.

It is much easier for me to understand Lipo than it was for me to get my head round nimh, balancing, matching and discharging.

I will run in the regionals and I am happy not to score any points, probably wouldnt get a F4 anyway :-).

I also understand it must be differcult for people, who are more serious racers than me, who have invetsed in cells, chargers and dischargers for Nimh to spend more money on 'the next big thing'

the STCC series is allowing Lipo with Mod motors for touring cars this year, will be interesting to see how much support there is for that against the other series that are being run.

Seems i created a stir here :eh?:

I simply wanted to know if the "support" class that was being referred to was indeed the super stock class that's new for this year :thumbsup:

As for cells going bang...
I've personally seen three sets of NimH go in the past year, and heard of another 5 or so.
I've heard on one set of lipo cells that went on fire because a NimH set of cells went bang inside a battery box where the Lipo was, not because of any other reason.

running a single lipo pack in my TC for almost a year, I've had no issues with it at all, a couple of times it's even come out of the car as the battery tape broke and it was dragged along the ground for a bit before I realised.

I can't recommend Lipo enough to people !