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Old 20-07-2010
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bedsrcmcc bedsrcmcc is offline
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Default Genuine stock class for fun focussed racing...

I have been thinking...

What would people think to a genuine STOCK class fo Tamiy Mini's?

When I say stock, I really mean stock. No upgrades, no fancy ESC. We run the kit out of the box, allow lipo (but restrict it's power) keep the kit ESC and basic tin can motor.

I'm thinking this as I would like to see a basic class, not just for new members but also for existing members who'd like something cheap (relatively in RC terms!!) and above all else fun

I know some have already got one of the Tamiya Mini's who may have upgraded them, but I think we should keep this standard or not run them at all.

I know I have mentioned in a pevious post about not doing too much to dilute what we already have, but we could potentially run 1 heat of mini's, 1 of micro and then 3 heats for TCs on a Friday night.

Thoughts...
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Old 20-07-2010
hashiriya hashiriya is offline
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I’m not sure what you are trying to achieve through running a class like this. If what you want is a truly stock class with the most basic equipment whilst being budget conscious, then Mardave racing already exists and you don’t have to reinvent the wheel.

Mini class racing is fairly well established in the area with a fairly basic rule set which has proven to give close competitive racing. Through experience, it’s been found that the only modifications which give any significant performance increase is the ball diff and anything which changes the internal gear ratio. The speed controller makes a small difference but with various versions of the M03 and M05 chassis available without the 101 or 104 speed controllers, it can not always be practical or accessible to limit the speed controllers to Tamiya only. Most brushed speed controllers won’t make any significant difference to the performance of the stock silver can motor.

Regarding motor, I don’t think it’s a bad idea to stick to stock silver can only especially with the size of the track we have available.

I think it would be best to run a similar rule set to what is already established in the local area to make it easier for people to make the transition and come to the club with very little initial layout. If you look at the mini rules around the country you will find that they are mostly the same up and down the country and it would be pointless to go against the grain and try and run the class differently just because we think it would be better. The same happened in the micro class when there was ideas of a more “stock” class of micros to be run at the club but I think it worked out better when we followed the national guidelines so that everyone knows that the same spec car could be used at this club or in fact anywhere around the country where they race micro.

So in conclusion, I’m back to my first paragraph which is that if you want slow and controlled stock racing then lets race Mardaves, if you want a mini class lets follow what the general consensus is and run limited modifications which don’t change the performance significantly.
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  #3  
Old 20-07-2010
HPI Paul HPI Paul is offline
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Default Mini Racing!

I know we have always been concious of having too many classes but I think Mini's are potentially a good option .

I agree with you Maz, it's not necessary to limit the choice of speed controller as it makes little difference. And agree that the formula/ rules adopted by other local clubs seem to work well and racing is always close regardless if you are running a basic setup with a few modest mods or hopped up with all the bling and blue imaginable. Certain mods make a difference like the alluminium shocks and m-grip tyres but these are not too expensive. Key controls I think are standard tin can motor, pinion size and battery capacity. Suggest getting thoughts from the likes of Ian D and Chris H, they will be able to give some good advice on what has and hasn't worked at MK and LB. Also need to be prepared for interest being bigger than one heat!

With regard to mardave, I have a fondness for them (don't know why) and I am currently on a quest to make my mardave competitive with the mini's at MK (and failing so far ).

But if you want some close stock-esq racing, arrangements at other local clubs with the mini's seem to be working well. I also think it is an easier and more consistent entry level for new-comers.

Paul C
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Old 20-07-2010
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I'm open to the Mardave route Maz, used to run them a very long time ago

Just wanted to consider options for cheap and cheerful racing, happy to know what others would like...
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Old 20-07-2010
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I haven't raced either the minis or the mardaves but I have seen a few mardave races. The racing does always look good. And the cars themselves are also very simple which is good if you are just starting in rc car racing. So as a beginner/stock class I think they would be very good.

My only concern is are with the marshalling. I think we saw on friday that marshalling with a large number of cars in a heat can be a bit crazy. And this could be come an issue if both classes are popular, and from what you guys are saying theres every chance they could do!

One question, more regarding the 1/10th touring cars. A lot of clubs now seem to be dropping the 13.5 motor class and instead making it a 17.5 class. Mainly due to the fact that the 13.5 motors are a lot faster than the old brushed stock motors. What do you guys think to this? I know it would mean everyone changing motors which is a big negative but it might make the racing closer.
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Old 20-07-2010
hashiriya hashiriya is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon R View Post
One question, more regarding the 1/10th touring cars. A lot of clubs now seem to be dropping the 13.5 motor class and instead making it a 17.5 class. Mainly due to the fact that the 13.5 motors are a lot faster than the old brushed stock motors. What do you guys think to this? I know it would mean everyone changing motors which is a big negative but it might make the racing closer.
I would happily support a drop in motor especially for racing at Bromham where the track is small. My feeling is to set a date quite a way in the future and say that the change will happen from a given date. For example say at the end of the summer or even autumn championship, the club moves over. that gives everyone a month or 2 at least to prepare for it, save some money if they need to and we can all make a change at the same time.
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Old 21-07-2010
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Yeah definitely Maz, I wasnt suggesting any time soon.

Just wanted to get the idea out there as I know a good number of clubs are considering doing this, Of course this doesn't mean we should follow and do it. It should be what ever is best for the club
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  #8  
Old 21-07-2010
HPI Paul HPI Paul is offline
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Default Stock Class

Don't want to get too far off topic (minis/mardaves);

My thoughts on 13.5/ 17.5 is that we should not necessarily change to 17.5 for the sake of it, purely and simply because a new motor costs £50 plus and the top ESC's will still be a big advantage, so although it might bring overall speeds down it might not level the playing field. Perhaps running the 'stoc spec' option on ESC's will make things more level than introducing 17.5's? Am I wrong in saying that a top ESC with the latest profile running a 17.5 could still out-perform a modest ESC running a 13.5?
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Old 21-07-2010
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I'm not sure if a 17.5 motor with the speedo timing could out perform a stock 13.5 as I have never run them. All I can add is that from moving from my novak gtb and 13.5 that were both just stock to my speed passion combo the difference is very large. It feels more like a 10.5 and runs cool than my novak ever did. Sorry I took this thread off topic.

Paul, what sort of electronics are you running in your mardave at mk? Is it still using a silver can motor and limited battery?
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  #10  
Old 21-07-2010
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Interesting comments Jon about your setup, amazing what you can get out of a speedo these days

Anyway, I know I could get flamed for this, but going back to my original post for a moment...

I appreciate that there are many clubs running Tamiya Mini's in various formats and of course those drivers are more than welcome to come along and race if we ever decided to go ahead with that class at our club.

However, what is the harm in trying to run the Mini's to our own rules at our club for inclusion in a Club Campionship? Of course we can have others running their Mini's with upgrades but my original thought was run a class straight out of the box with no extras - so keep everything as it is in the box and limited power of cells/lipo with no other options permitted.

Those of you who may already have a Mini can race it, but if it has been modified out of the box then points would not be available to you. The idea is to get a level playing field for a championship in terms of hardware so that the racing can be close, but above all else fun.

I thought the micros would offer that but just walk around the pits and how many micros are being run out of the box - not one me thinks Don't get me wrong, I love watching the micros race but I was thinking originally that there would be more of a level playing field.

I'm my worst enermy when I blinged up my Xray truck which is why I was thinking of going back to basics with something like the Tamiya Mini. Let's leave the micros and TCs to spend all our money on, and let the out of the box Mini's do their own thing.

Yes the Mardave is another option to the Mini, but you have to admit that the Tamiya Mini's do look fab...

Sometimes not following the crowd can bring happiness and joy...
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  #11  
Old 22-07-2010
ek9russ ek9russ is offline
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I’m with Paul, If we decide to go down the mini route I think we should look into controlling the motor, gearing, tyres and battery capacity.

From what I have read if you control these factors with the Minis, pretty much anything else you do the car doesn’t really make any difference to the performance.

Below is a mix matched set of rules from LB and MK, that I think could work well for us at the Beds club,It would be wise to get input from Chris and Ian and anyone else who does the minis

Any Tamiya M03 chassis or M05 chassis
Any commercially available M chassis Specific Bodyshell.
Tamiya tyres only M / S Grip or kit standards, NO slicks
Standard kit supplied geared differential. (Diff must have diff action and not be locked)
20 tooth pinion gear
Standard kit supplied Johnson or Mabuchi RS540 silver can motor.
NiMh /NiCd batteries up to 2300mah
Minimum 1250g weight including transponder.
5.0MM minimum ride height inc bodyshell.
No external aero dynamic wings are allowed
All other hop up options may be utilised.

I do like the idea of being able to use LiPos if the cost and size is limited, maybe something like the HPI Plazma 3000 LiPo that has a RRP of £34.99.

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  #12  
Old 22-07-2010
HPI Paul HPI Paul is offline
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Default Mardaves Anyone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon R View Post
Paul, what sort of electronics are you running in your mardave at mk? Is it still using a silver can motor and limited battery?
I run the Mardave with a silver can and a (15 year old!) nosram patriot ESC and 4 cell packs. This set up keeps pace with the mini's, just need to tweak it some more and improve my driving . Last time I ran the foam tyres with a little bit of additive at the rear, otherwise when it picks up crud there is no grip on the rear, but I'm sure there is a way round this -any advice from Mardave drivers viewing this thread?

If we do want a true stock class, I think the Mardave route would be very cost effective and easy to implement. A basic setup is £70 with ESC (m-troniks??) which may look expensive compared to the the mini given how basic the mardave is but there is a massive choice of bodyshells, circa £10 each compared to £30 for a mini shell and few spares are required and are cheap and you can buy individually. With regard to batteries, 2 x 4300mah 4-cell (HPI one's circa £16 each) would be adequate for 4 rounds of racing, cannot get much cheaper than that.

I will bring my Mini and Mardave along on friday for a play .
Paul
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  #13  
Old 22-07-2010
ek9russ ek9russ is offline
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I knew I shouldn’t have cut up my Mardave to make the caravan at Christmas
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Old 22-07-2010
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Useful info Russ on the basic rules for the Tamiya Mini's, I think that would certainly stop anyone trying to spend money on their cars.

I also like the very basic Mardave too. The cost of bodyshells is a good point Paul. Am I right that you can get different shaped shells for the Mardave? Are they now lexan or still that stiff white plastic of the good old days that need to be painted on the outside?

I'm also thinking that the Mardave are smaller so we could run a lot more in 1 heat
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Old 22-07-2010
HPI Paul HPI Paul is offline
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Yeah, you can get the white plastic shells (ABS) or lexan and there is quite a choice, check out mardave website and also Kamtec who do bodyshells and various other aftermarket bits for the mardaves;

http://mardaveonline.co.uk/
http://www.kamtec.co.uk/


Paul
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  #16  
Old 22-07-2010
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Hey.... Mardave Caterhams! Oh yes

What about racing these:

http://www.kamtec.co.uk/index.php?pa...mart&Itemid=53

These would look stunning racing on our track - what do you think
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  #17  
Old 23-07-2010
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Well I have to say Paul

Having driven both the Tamiya and the Mardave's this evening (thank you BTW for the kind offer to try them out) I would have to give my backing to the Mardave.

Yes the Tamiya bodyshell looks fab, but the chassis for me just has too much temptation for people to 'tweak' them where as the Mardave is as simple as you can get. I used to race Mardave's a long time ago and the amazing thing is that in 30 odd years they don't seem to have changed much

I think the Mardave is by far the easier to control in terms of rules, cheapest by far and even running the stock tin can motor I was keeping up with Brushless Micros

So what do others feel about the club running a basic out of box Mardave V12 Chassis which can have different bodyshells, mini, peugoet 205 etc. We'd have to consider what we do regarding cells and ESC, but the rest can be kit standard me thinks.

A couple of people expressed an interest in the Mardave's if there were enough to make up a full grid...
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  #18  
Old 24-07-2010
ian6985 ian6985 is offline
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At MK we've tried both the Mardave and Tamiya route for low cost entry racing. The Tamiya route has been much more successful than the Mardave (however a few years ago when the previous Bedford club was set up, it did establish a good Mardave following). Ultimately Tamiya's are much more accessable as most RC stockists have them (appreciate that Russ may not have them for good reasons).

The advantage of Tamiya's is that there are only 4 things that make any difference to them - the motor, ball races, shocks and batteries. The rest is pointless bling. Control the motor, limit the batteries (my strong suggestion is don't allow Lipo - there is too much of a voltage difference with NiHh) and its a low cost class anyone can get into for less than £250

However ultimately Mardave's performance are about the same (4 cell / same motor as Tamiya's) so why not cater for both of them? Stick them in the same heat(s) and seperate through formula on the computer.
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Old 24-07-2010
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PS The Mardave caterhams do look fantastic
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Old 24-07-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ian6985 View Post
PS The Mardave caterhams do look fantastic
I couldn't agree more

Thanks for the comments Ian.

Interestingly some of the feedback we got from the Bromham Show when people equired was the price for racing. Of course any hobby can be expensive as any parent will know!!

My gut reaction is to try out Mardaves first. The mini stock chassis is so simple you really can't go wrong with it and there are some nice variations on bodyshells - Renault Clio, Peugeot 205, BMW MINI to name a few.

Chatting with Chris on Friday there is of course the cell v lipo debate... Chris made an interesting point for and against lipo, I would simply suggest that the club restrict the power of the lipo but insure that the speedo being run with the kit std tin can motor is compatible with lipo's.

I've been converted to lipo now and to go back to cells for me seems a backward step. All in all, I think we can keep the costs even lower than the £250 you mention for Tamiya Mini's which is great news for those of us who fancy having some cheap fun and also for those who'd like to start racing as cheap as possible.

Russell will be able to stock Mardave's so the club has a very local resource to spares and kits which is great news

Another topic for our clubs committee to thrash out I guess as to what way we might go...
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