new amb system

[steveuk]

I've been reading this thread for a while now and have resisted commenting as I'm sure I'm going to get abuse from someone.

I look at this issue from both sides of the argument, I am a racer, but also I run a club.

I don't understand how a company can get away with the behaviour of AMb, if it wasn't for the fact they have a monopoly I'm sure they wouldn't.

From a club point of view, we can't afford to replace our equipment every couple of years as AMB feel like updating their firmware and preventing certain transponders from working. For us you are talking of an investment of over £2500, it has taken the club many years to raise that much cash. What happens when the next decoder comes out and casually dropped in to the mix is that it will only work with purcy and the new fred transponder? We have about 15 'handouts' which could be rendered useless. We are doing quite well from the point of view of having younger members, I'm pretty sure when I tell a parent yes you can race, but you need to spend another £80 on a transponder we won't get that many young racers turn up.

From a racing point of view I have one of the very original PT's and in the 10 plus years I've had it I don't think it's ever missed a lap. It's been in everything from 1/8th circuit, 1/8th offroad, bikes, micros and 1/10th 2 and 4wd. Telling me there's less chance of a new one missing something that has never been a problem isn't selling me on the idea.

Steve

[sosidge]

AMB/Mylaps have maintained backwards compatibility with their own transponders. The racers with earlier authentic transponders should have no concerns about the decoder upgrade.

Granted, AMB/Mylaps are "encouraging" clubs to upgrade their decoders at a not-inconsiderable cost. And when you take into account that the newest transponder - the Pure RC4 with its additional features - is NOT compatible with older decoders, then you might interpret this as "pressure".

But as you have seen as a racer, AMB/Mylaps have given you a good product for a number of years - sometimes a good product costs money.

I don't think any other country in the world is in such a tizzy over the RC4 update. I'm sure most clubs elsewhere see it as an undesirable cost, but ultimately an essential one. It's only the widespread use of non-authentic transponders in the UK that has made this such a big issue.

[skiv]

I agree, if there were no mrt pt's there would be so much of a discussion, but...

If there were no mrt pt's would there still be a cheap decoder upgrade price to the clubs, would there still be a good deal on AMB pt upgrades to harry and/or purcy.??

and would people still be upset when the harry stopped production and only the purcy was available that didn't work at the clubs that couldnt afford or chose not to upgrade...?

Just something to think about, as i think a problem would still have occured in another form if there were no mrt pt's

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by steveuk

I've been reading this thread for a while now and have resisted commenting as I'm sure I'm going to get abuse from someone.

I look at this issue from both sides of the argument, I am a racer, but also I run a club.

I don't understand how a company can get away with the behaviour of AMb, if it wasn't for the fact they have a monopoly I'm sure they wouldn't.

From a club point of view, we can't afford to replace our equipment every couple of years as AMB feel like updating their firmware and preventing certain transponders from working. For us you are talking of an investment of over £2500, it has taken the club many years to raise that much cash. What happens when the next decoder comes out and casually dropped in to the mix is that it will only work with purcy and the new fred transponder? We have about 15 'handouts' which could be rendered useless. We are doing quite well from the point of view of having younger members, I'm pretty sure when I tell a parent yes you can race, but you need to spend another £80 on a transponder we won't get that many young racers turn up.

From a racing point of view I have one of the very original PT's and in the 10 plus years I've had it I don't think it's ever missed a lap. It's been in everything from 1/8th circuit, 1/8th offroad, bikes, micros and 1/10th 2 and 4wd. Telling me there's less chance of a new one missing something that has never been a problem isn't selling me on the idea.

Steve

Originally Posted by sosidge

AMB/Mylaps have maintained backwards compatibility with their own transponders. The racers with earlier authentic transponders should have no concerns about the decoder upgrade.

Granted, AMB/Mylaps are "encouraging" clubs to upgrade their decoders at a not-inconsiderable cost. And when you take into account that the newest transponder - the Pure RC4 with its additional features - is NOT compatible with older decoders, then you might interpret this as "pressure".

But as you have seen as a racer, AMB/Mylaps have given you a good product for a number of years - sometimes a good product costs money.

I don't think any other country in the world is in such a tizzy over the RC4 update. I'm sure most clubs elsewhere see it as an undesirable cost, but ultimately an essential one. It's only the widespread use of non-authentic transponders in the UK that has made this such a big issue.

and those new features are?
temp and battery voltage....... my god how have we coped with out that info??

you need to look further afield, mrt are used all over europe, if not the world, not just in the uk.

[Robby]

Originally Posted by steveuk

I've been reading this thread for a while now and have resisted commenting as I'm sure I'm going to get abuse from someone.

I look at this issue from both sides of the argument, I am a racer, but also I run a club.

I don't understand how a company can get away with the behaviour of AMb, if it wasn't for the fact they have a monopoly I'm sure they wouldn't.

From a club point of view, we can't afford to replace our equipment every couple of years as AMB feel like updating their firmware and preventing certain transponders from working. For us you are talking of an investment of over £2500, it has taken the club many years to raise that much cash. What happens when the next decoder comes out and casually dropped in to the mix is that it will only work with purcy and the new fred transponder? We have about 15 'handouts' which could be rendered useless. We are doing quite well from the point of view of having younger members, I'm pretty sure when I tell a parent yes you can race, but you need to spend another £80 on a transponder we won't get that many young racers turn up.

From a racing point of view I have one of the very original PT's and in the 10 plus years I've had it I don't think it's ever missed a lap. It's been in everything from 1/8th circuit, 1/8th offroad, bikes, micros and 1/10th 2 and 4wd. Telling me there's less chance of a new one missing something that has never been a problem isn't selling me on the idea.

Steve

Originally Posted by skiv

I agree, if there were no mrt pt's there would be so much of a discussion, but...

If there were no mrt pt's would there still be a cheap decoder upgrade price to the clubs, would there still be a good deal on AMB pt upgrades to harry and/or purcy.??

and would people still be upset when the harry stopped production and only the purcy was available that didn't work at the clubs that couldnt afford or chose not to upgrade...?

Just something to think about, as i think a problem would still have occured in another form if there were no mrt pt's

Exactly!

Originally Posted by sosidge

AMB/Mylaps have maintained backwards compatibility with their own transponders. The racers with earlier authentic transponders should have no concerns about the decoder upgrade.

Granted, AMB/Mylaps are "encouraging" clubs to upgrade their decoders at a not-inconsiderable cost. And when you take into account that the newest transponder - the Pure RC4 with its additional features - is NOT compatible with older decoders, then you might interpret this as "pressure".

But as you have seen as a racer, AMB/Mylaps have given you a good product for a number of years - sometimes a good product costs money.

I don't think any other country in the world is in such a tizzy over the RC4 update. I'm sure most clubs elsewhere see it as an undesirable cost, but ultimately an essential one. It's only the widespread use of non-authentic transponders in the UK that has made this such a big issue.

"Encouraging".... like AMB/MyLaps did when encouraging clubs to ditch their handout transponders while encouraging all racers to PURCHASE personal transponders - and new models of decoders to replace previous models?

And exactly what "essential" - really essential - are they offering with the RC4 that couldn't be done with any of the previous versions currently in the hands of clubs?
Those "non-authentic transponders" have been sold for a number of years now, and they haven't been limited to sales just in the UK, their in the hands of racer friends of mine all over the world including all of Europe, the Far East, Canada, and the U.S. to name but a few.
If they were truly interested in devoiding the market of so-called "non-authentic transponders (MRT)," then they would be offering the RC4 upgrade to clubs for free (along with the replacement of any offending transponders) and corner the market - and instead they've turned it into a profit-making endeavor. All of us are paying so MyLaps can get rid of the competition. That ain't right!

Personally, as someone that's been in the hobby from before the introduction of the original AMB system 25 (what?) years ago, I don't see that it does anything now that it didn't do way back then -- other than encourage clubs and racers to keep buying products, via a planned obsolescence of their previous products, to keep additional monies rolling into their coffers. And now, with their latest actions, this sort of monopolistic attitude gets under my skin - especially since AMB/MyLaps product and business was originally developed from the RC market, and now that we're the smallest (logically) segment of their market they're just putting the hammer to us again instead of supporting us.
As I said - all of us, clubs and racers alike, are paying so MyLaps can get rid of the competition.

[MattW]

It "ain't right" for AMB/Mylaps to attempt to make money?? really?? I have no words!!

I will say one thing though, I have to AMB's (old big ones) and 2 MRT's and tbh, it's only the black ones that have been in use when I've had missed laps. I like them as they allow me to have clones - but I HAVE had missed laps.

[Jim Spencer]

Hi

I'm a complete Ludite where technology is concerned, but I think I've got this one the right way round...
... folk somewhere along the line have got 'accuracy' mixed in with 'Missed Laps'

The early transponder systems, wern't actually that accurate, the finish line (i.e. the actual point on the track where your transponder was detected by the loop) could be quite wide indeed - hence the occasional hiccup where you would get:-
"I'm certain my car was in front of Fred's but the system has him first"
cropped up, as the loop just happened to detect Fred's transponder first..

Hence the use of finish line cameras at the really big races just to be on the safe side.
(In full sized racing until very very recently Transponders were only used for car Identification for this very reason, positions were verified by people..)

The various generations of Transponder have improved that issue dramatically and i'm lead to believe that the latest ones are nearly as accurate as a 'break beam' system, while I have no doubt they'll miss less laps the big improvement in 'accuracy' is the exact timing of those laps / race finishes I reckon.

HTH

[bigred5765]

Originally Posted by Jim Spencer

Hi

I'm a complete Ludite where technology is concerned, but I think I've got this one the right way round...
... folk somewhere along the line have got 'accuracy' mixed in with 'Missed Laps'

The early transponder systems, wern't actually that accurate, the finish line (i.e. the actual point on the track where your transponder was detected by the loop) could be quite wide indeed - hence the occasional hiccup where you would get:-
"I'm certain my car was in front of Fred's but the system has him first"
cropped up, as the loop just happened to detect Fred's transponder first..

Hence the use of finish line cameras at the really big races just to be on the safe side.
(In full sized racing until very very recently Transponders were only used for car Identification for this very reason, positions were verified by people..)

The various generations of Transponder have improved that issue dramatically and i'm lead to believe that the latest ones are nearly as accurate as a 'break beam' system, while I have no doubt they'll miss less laps the big improvement in 'accuracy' is the exact timing of those laps / race finishes I reckon.

HTH

I did not know that jim i jsut put it down to were fred and bob had ther pt's lol
great bit of info thanks for posting

[discothesnake]

I really don't get this? AMB/MYLAPS manufacture the system, MRT make cheaper PT's to run on their systems. MYLAPS want to upgrade their system but the MRT efforts won't work?

MYLAPS is a business. Do you ever wonder how much money they spend designing and testing their equipment? Their aim is make money, not to pander to racers who use a rival company's transponder.

If you have concerns, trade in your MRT for a Harry and you have no worries. Simple. For £40, which is about a set of tyres and wheels, I think it's a fair deal.

[Robby]

MRT isn't "a business"?

I'm wondering how everyone would feel if Standard Oil demanded that all automobile makers inserted software into their automobiles so that gasoline produced by British Petroleum didn't operate their cars?

I'm wondering how people would feel if they found this forum, or their email accounts, suddenly not IBM or Apple (etc.) compatible?

Personally I don't care if it's £40 or £4, I don't think it right ANY of my transponders won't work now.

All of us, clubs and racers alike, are paying so MyLaps can get rid of the competition.

[Danny Harrison]

Way I see it, is as a lot do. AMB are monopolizing the market (even more so than they already have)

Trouble is, if even a few clubs upgrade, then all clubs would feel the need to. If any club is stubborn and doesnt, it's only a matter of time before the club will suffer.

I think it would be fair to have backwards compatibility with all transponders. People need some choice surely.

Lets put some tech in our real cars so that only British cars work on our roads and see what happens....

Oh hang on, I'm pretty sure that would be illegal

[discothesnake]

Originally Posted by Robby

MRT isn't "a business"?

I'm wondering how everyone would feel if Standard Oil demanded that all automobile makers inserted software into their automobiles so that gasoline produced by British Petroleum didn't operate their cars?

I'm wondering how people would feel if they found this forum, or their email accounts, suddenly not IBM or Apple (etc.) compatible?

Personally I don't care if it's £40 or £4, I don't think it right ANY of my transponders won't work now.

All of us, clubs and racers alike, are paying so MyLaps can get rid of the competition.

Yes MRT are a business who make money From MYLAPS by buliding and selling a transponder that works on a system made by another company. If you have such feelings for MRT maybe people should put pressure on them to make a DeCoder that would work with MYLAPS PT's.

[discothesnake]

Originally Posted by Danny Harrison

Way I see it, is as a lot do. AMB are monopolizing the market (even more so than they already have)

Trouble is, if even a few clubs upgrade, then all clubs would feel the need to. If any club is stubborn and doesnt, it's only a matter of time before the club will suffer.

I think it would be fair to have backwards compatibility with all transponders. People need some choice surely.

Lets put some tech in our real cars so that only British cars work on our roads and see what happens....

Oh hang on, I'm pretty sure that would be illegal

AMB can't be monopolising the market. They make it! They are the market!

There is no pressure on clubs to upgrade at the moment. Harry's and the original PT's still work on all versions so as long you have an AMB PT you are fine.

I don't understand why AMB are the bad guys in this. Technology has to move on. All they are doing is improving the system. It's up to MRT to catch up I'm afraid.

[DCM]

Originally Posted by discothesnake

AMB can't be monopolising the market. They make it! They are the market!

There is no pressure on clubs to upgrade at the moment. Harry's and the original PT's still work on all versions so as long you have an AMB PT you are fine.

I don't understand why AMB are the bad guys in this. Technology has to move on. All they are doing is improving the system. It's up to MRT to catch up I'm afraid.

The force doesn't come from them making RC4 decoders, but either MyLaps or BBK choosing to no longer support RC3 decoders, which means that if you did have a decoder failure then you would have an RC4 decoder back. If they chose to support RC3 and repair and return as that firmware, no issue is there (until someone comes to your club with a Purcy, so in effect, the pressure is there to either choose to keep supporting MRT buyers or support the future Purcy buyers).

[jo90]

I am amazed that there are so many people so split over this, thinking of their own PT and their own racing. We need to look at a bigger picture than what you have in your car.

The issue is keeping people racing. How? By trying to keep the costs as low as we can. This goes for many items yes, not just PT's, but this latest move does seem as though AMB doesn't want 'fair' competition. Yes, they are in it to make money, any business is. However when it is MRT is berated by some as a copy/inferior etc etc well that's plain wrong. I have no vested interest in MRT but I believe they provided a more aligned version of a PT than other companies due to the cost mainly. As mentioned, MRT bugs aren't just a UK commodity. I have seen these I believe in Hara's car even and others, so it proves they trusted in them working, and rightly so. Now this isn't to say AMB have to go all out to halve their costs, but look at how the AMB/MyLaps PT's have risen in price over the last few years. So much so that even a second hand AMB PT still goes for £50-60 on line second hand !

The BRCA off-road section have said they are moving to RC4. This then meens all those wanting to do nats are forced to have to change from MRT. If a club's unit breaks, they will have to go to RC4. this is a reasonable 'force' to make change.

Now, don't think I don't realise at some point we will have to upgrade. thats a given and i, as are alot of others racers, not stupid enough to know we will have to. But give it time. Allow racers to start moving into it gradually. Most clubs will stick with RC3 for now, so this won't hurt many initially. Those wanting to do nats it will affect now, so the cost (additional to everything else) will be born by them. Once this initial phase is over we will be looking at around the £90 mark for a bug, for each car potentially we use (unless we are happy to swap it between cars).

Ideally, and I believe im right in saying, the issue is that many feel they are going to be pushed into a corner and soon. That is where this thread is coming from, and that is what the majority or racers I feel express in their replys.

I would think at this point it is best, as racers, to approach those clubs you intend on visiting this year. Ask them if they will be going RC4 and when. Work out if it's in your best benefit, and if you can afford to, to change now ready. For me im hoping that there will be no change to those clubs I intend on going to as my racing budget gets smaller and smaller as life costs more and more. For me, that £40 will be needed to pay for a set of tyres, and race fee's at my weekly club, or to pay for my race weekend in 2 weeks etc. It's hadr to say to a racer "it's only £40" when perhaps it's not only, and it's 'nearly all of' for them.

Look at the wider picture, not just within the blinkers.

[MattW]

jo90 - what's your definition of "fair competition"? That's a serious question, as AMB developed the system (which I'm sure took longer than a couple of hours!), and they have a variety of Patents out on it.

I have nothing at all against MRT, they have provided a good service to racers world wide. You're quite right in saying that many of the worlds top racers have them in their cars - and I would say this is purely for the reason of being able to clone their origonal AMB's.

What does bother me though, is the number of people that seemingly only have, and have only ever had MRT transponders. Surely that is just asking for trouble as there is nothing what so ever unique about their transponder.

Like I've said, I have had my origonal AMB cloned, and I still have that AMB, so I can be fairly confident that I alone own that number. That said, I do know at least one person that tells me that he's had his AMB cloned, and he still owns his AMB, and yet he has turned up at a race with someone else trying to use that number - that's a worry.

[Robby]

Originally Posted by MattW

Like I've said, I have had my origonal AMB cloned, and I still have that AMB, so I can be fairly confident that I alone own that number. That said, I do know at least one person that tells me that he's had his AMB cloned, and he still owns his AMB, and yet he has turned up at a race with someone else trying to use that number - that's a worry.

It's no worry, as the number on any MRT can be changed at trackside to one of 10 different stored numbers.

Originally Posted by discothesnake

AMB can't be monopolising the market. They make it! They are the market!

There is no pressure on clubs to upgrade at the moment. Harry's and the original PT's still work on all versions so as long you have an AMB PT you are fine.

I don't understand why AMB are the bad guys in this. Technology has to move on. All they are doing is improving the system. It's up to MRT to catch up I'm afraid.

That is precisely what a monopoly is.

"MONOPOLY -
"1. to have, control, or make use of fully, excluding others.
2. (Economics) to obtain, maintain, or exploit a monopoly of (a market, commodity, etc.).
3. A monopoly exists when a specific person or enterprise is the only supplier of a particular commodity. Monopolies are thus characterized by a lack of economic competition to produce the good or service and a lack of viable substitute goods. The verb "monopolize" refers to the process by which a company gains the ability to raise prices or exclude competitors."

[Jim Spencer]

Hi

This thread needs to die.

Some of the last few posts illustrate that it's now to big for people to extract the detail from it to make valid points.

We've been over the other available systems, duplicated PT numbers etc, compatablity etc etc till everybody is just getting wound up.

There's no point in just repeating explanations from about 10 pages ago really is there?

[scooterboy]

I need a pt but Harry's are out of stock Percy's don't work everywhere and mrt may or may not work, complete and utter shambles

[bigred5765]

Originally Posted by scooterboy

I need a pt but Harry's are out of stock Percy's don't work everywhere and mrt may or may not work, complete and utter shambles

mylaps arent out of stock http://www.mylaps.com/index.php/uk_e...s/B2C/rc/shop2