BRCA EB Battery Regs Announced

[Chequered Flag Racing]

but no list of what is allowed as yet

see 2009 Regs (http://brca.org/BRCA/elecboard/news.htm), top right of page

[Mike Hudson]

Copyed direct from the brca rules and regs 09
'Lithium Based (LiPo) Battery Packs.
The storage, charging and use of Lithium based batteries (LiPo) can give rise to
serious safety implications. The BRCA will publish guidelines for the safe use of
these batteries on the BRCA website. It is imperative that the guidelines are studied
and adhered to.
3.3 Lithium based (LiPo) battery packs must have a hard, protective case that
completely envelopes the cell(s). The case should be made from ABS or a similar
material. The two halves of the case must be factory sealed in a way that any
attempt to open the case will destroy the case. The only opening in the case that is
allowed, is for the exit of wires.
3.4 For 7.4v Packs: The maximum case sizes allowed are as follows: -
Length: 139.0mm.
Width: 47.0mm. (The max. width includes any side exit wires).
Height: 23.5mm. (In addition, chassis location protrusions are allowed)
Saddle-Pack cells are allowed, and must comply with the above width and height
dimensions. Saddle-Pack cells must have a combined length dimension of 139.0mm
max when placed end to end.'

That makes the current trakpower 3200 and 4800 saddles illegal then :cry: Glad i din't go ahead and buy a pack today :lol::woot:
Have heard that trakpower might be producing some new saddles though but whether they comply with the max dimension limits and will be submitted on time I don't know.
So at current I don't know of any saddle packs that comply with the all rules at current and theres only until the end of this month for manufacturers to sumbit saddle packs that don't break any of the rules.

[discostu]

thats typical of the brca trying to kill a class of racing so if you run a d4,b4, 501, bj4 worlds, x11, yokomo b max, yokomo bx or any saddle pack 4wd car you will not be aloud to race a brca meeting unless you spend mega money on unrelible exploding nimh cells and all the cycle crap that goes with them that figures any way what if the clear heat shrink was removed from the track power lipo saddles do the fit the dimentions then

stu rand

[bondy]

Makes me laugh and cry at the same time !

Saddle pack lipos must be no more in length combined than a normal lipo pack. :mad:

Yes it probably would if you cut one end off the case on one of them ????? -- but there are now 4 ends not 2 ! If the cells inside are a set length then yes there is going to be a few mm extra plastic 2 lots to be precice. Its not rocket science here its basic engineering and understanding. So trakpower " the inovators the ones who took the risk reaaly and changed the way we race I think will be a bit P***** off ! And frankley I wouldnt blame them

3mm Guys Come on Which muppet made that rule up ?? :lol: and why ??


ps I havent bought any yet and by the looks of it will anybody now !

[3975dave]

Would I be right in saying that they only have till the end of the month to submit some correct size saddle packs that could then be approved for this year???:o
If thats the case then that could be a bad decision Imo.

[James]

Yes it probably would if you cut one end off the case on one of them ????? -- but there are now 4 ends not 2 ! If the cells inside are a set length then yes there is going to be a few mm extra plastic 2 lots to be precice.

Doesnt affect me as i run sticks in both cars but i agree with that bondy, there are 2 extra ends just by nature of having 2 units, shouldn't there really be an allowance for that? i dunno:confused:

[OldTimer]

New cells have to be submitted by the 1st of December.

[tyreman]

The way I read it was, all new cells could be submitted as late as 31st January.

[3975dave]

Were no legal sized saddle packs submitted at all???

[DCM]

New cells have to be submitted by the 1st of December.

there is an extension till the end of Jan for LiPo.

And it wouldn't of been hard to write a specific length for a 'saddle half' of a saddle pack, leaveing the height and width the same. But then I would guess that if there is a need, the manufacturers will provide asap....

I think, for regional racing, the regions would just have to use common sense, just might leave the EOS finals a bit low on numbers.

[OldTimer]

The way I read it was, all new cells could be submitted as late as 31st January.

Just took the 1st of December off the Electric board 2009 rules pdf.

Ah just spotted it further down :p 31st of Jan for lipos, my error.

[ashleyb4]

Im pretty sure the rules said the time period for cells to be submitted has been extended thsi year due to the fact this year is the first proper lipo year.

But again i could be wrong.

All i can say is though the rules are perfectly fine good set of guidelines yea i have a 3200 lipo which wont be legal next year but im sure companys such as track power wont have trouble skimming a few mm off each of the cell cases.

Also bear in mind that chances are the manafacture's would of had these guidlines before us so they would have more time.

A

[SimonW]

Does this mean that the current "Rolling" list of lipos ie, the one the touring guys use are the only legal lipos for this year then ? Somebody please help as i'm off to race the petite thingy and need to get them in.

[rc_penguin]

Petit said that they would allow lipos before the rules came out but as long as lead was added to bring the car up to weight. I hope they still allow the trakpowers still cos i cant afford new cells :cry:

[OldTimer]

The touring car lipo list is not a official electric board list, we were advised at the agm the list of approved lipos for this year would be out as quickly as possible. Not sure now how this stands with the approval deadline being moved back two months ?.

[super sparks]

For 7.4v Packs: The maximum case sizes allowed are as follows: -
Length: 139.0mm.
Width: 47.0mm.
If the above lipo cell sizes above as quoted by mike are correct then core rc 5000mah cells should be ok they have hard cases and they fall under the above measurements

[3975dave]

Petit said that they would allow lipos before the rules came out but as long as lead was added to bring the car up to weight. I hope they still allow the trakpowers still cos i cant afford new cells :cry:

From what I understood they should be fine dude :)
Unless of course you insult my plastic fantastic again :p

[Tim Ward]

Isn't the BRCA supposed to represent OUR views??? I say we on-mass write/email to the BRCA EB and let them know how wrong they are re rules that effectively outlaw Trakpower saddles!

[neiloliver]

I dont think that being on the Touring car list means that they will be on the final list. Some may be removed due to the side wire/dimension. It also depends on if they are officially submitted for approval. We will need to wait for the final list to come out before buying anything.

I see 2009 as a Shakedown year for Lithium Polymer... Even if all the packs on the TC list did make it to the final list then that is a LOT of packs.. and they wont all be good in terms of cycle life, durability etc..

On the trackpower saddles... Making a pack that is longer than three Cs cells side by side was always going to be on a sticky wicket... but all battery design is a compromise and I am sure they were forced down that route by the efficiency of using a cell side they had already tooled.

[ashleyb4]

Try and get them in you b44 as far as im aware they wont fit in anyway without modification so the EB are making the manafacture change the sizes so that they will fit in all cars with minimal modification.

A

[spenner]

Here we go again.......

Don't get me wrong i see Lipo or whatever else they are testing ??? as the future in cells etc.... BUT!!!!

Why moan about the RULES when they was there in the first place and the manufacturers are the one's who haven't followed them ????

If they had followed the current size reg's (for sub C cells) would there be a problem ????
IF they change the rules to suit, then the BRCA which is a a tad pole in the pond of R/C would be diff to the rest!! Meaning anyone who attends international meetings would need diff cells.

Why don't the people who purchased the cells take them back and say they are not fit for the purpose ??? (Purpose being to use for race meetings)
Guess you can't as you knowingly purchased them even though they weren't legal.....

Sounds harsh i suppose but i can see all this moaning only leading to those at the top telling us all too do it ourselves!!! And i for one am thankfull of the job they do.

So, looks like we are all converting our cars to run stick lipo. Or we buy the Schumacher!!

[Northy]

I think, for regional racing, the regions would just have to use common sense, just might leave the EOS finals a bit low on numbers.

There are only certain rules that a Regional series can decide nout to use, and cells is not one of them.........

As someone who is actually on the BRCA committee, if you ask my advice I'd say don't buy anything until the official (not the touring car) list comes out.

G

[ben]

Or we buy the Schumacher!!

Good call!!! :thumbsup: :yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn:

[mark christopher]

thats typical of the brca trying to kill a class of racing so if you run a d4,b4, 501, bj4 worlds, x11, yokomo b max, yokomo bx or any saddle pack 4wd car you will not be aloud to race a brca meeting unless you spend mega money on unrelible exploding nimh cells and all the cycle crap that goes with them that figures any way what if the clear heat shrink was removed from the track power lipo saddles do the fit the dimentions then

stu rand
no they are 1mm over size end to end with the heat shrink off.
Makes me laugh and cry at the same time !

Saddle pack lipos must be no more in length combined than a normal lipo pack. :mad:

Yes it probably would if you cut one end off the case on one of them ????? -- but there are now 4 ends not 2 ! If the cells inside are a set length then yes there is going to be a few mm extra plastic 2 lots to be precice. Its not rocket science here its basic engineering and understanding. So trakpower " the inovators the ones who took the risk reaaly and changed the way we race I think will be a bit P***** off ! And frankley I wouldnt blame them

3mm Guys Come on Which muppet made that rule up ?? :lol: and why ??


ps I havent bought any yet and by the looks of it will anybody now !
id not blame em too

Isn't the BRCA supposed to represent OUR views??? I say we on-mass write/email to the BRCA EB and let them know how wrong they are re rules that effectively outlaw Trakpower saddles!
wont do any good im affraid! best that could happen is for off road to drop the EB for battery lists!

I dont think that being on the Touring car list means that they will be on the final list. Some may be removed due to the side wire/dimension. It also depends on if they are officially submitted for approval. We will need to wait for the final list to come out before buying anything.

I see 2009 as a Shakedown year for Lithium Polymer... Even if all the packs on the TC list did make it to the final list then that is a LOT of packs.. and they wont all be good in terms of cycle life, durability etc..

On the trackpower saddles... Making a pack that is longer than three Cs cells side by side was always going to be on a sticky wicket... but all battery design is a compromise and I am sure they were forced down that route by the efficiency of using a cell side they had already tooled.
neil take the cell out of the case there under size, likewise take your solder bars off the Nimh saddles and they fit the dimensions (ie you fit the bars you have made the CELL bigger than the dimensions, same as by adding a case)

Try and get them in you b44 as far as im aware they wont fit in anyway without modification so the EB are making the manafacture change the sizes so that they will fit in all cars with minimal modification.

A
yes they do, search on oople

Here we go again.......

Don't get me wrong i see Lipo or whatever else they are testing ??? as the future in cells etc.... BUT!!!!

Why moan about the RULES when they was there in the first place and the manufacturers are the one's who haven't followed them ????

If they had followed the current size reg's (for sub C cells) would there be a problem ????
IF they change the rules to suit, then the BRCA which is a a tad pole in the pond of R/C would be diff to the rest!! Meaning anyone who attends international meetings would need diff cells.

Why don't the people who purchased the cells take them back and say they are not fit for the purpose ??? (Purpose being to use for race meetings)
Guess you can't as you knowingly purchased them even though they weren't legal.....

Sounds harsh i suppose but i can see all this moaning only leading to those at the top telling us all too do it ourselves!!! And i for one am thankfull of the job they do.

So, looks like we are all converting our cars to run stick lipo. Or we buy the Schumacher!!

no wanting to state the obvious there were NO rules for lipo

[DaveG28]

Ok, so, can anyone confirm the following for current Lipo (eg there is a month left for new ones to appear!):

All Trakpowers are illegal, stick and saddle, as they are not factory glued?
There are currently no legal saddles in existence?

Spenner, personally I am not annoyed at my cells being illegal, I bought them before any Lipo were legal because I knew the winter tracks I'd go to would allow them. What annoys me is I have a Bmax which can't be converted to take stick, a 501x which cannot be converted to take stick. At least, not without some combination of new chassis/drivetrain/bodyshell! Unlike apparently the pred, so your ok!

That's my issue, IF no saddles appear in time, we're wiping some cars out with this!

Ash, not sure about the B44 but for the Bx the trakpower is a direct fit, the Bmax just needs Bx battery posts (no new holes need drilling) and the 501x needs b44 battery posts (or filing down stock posts). That's 3 cars that don't need a dremel (sorry Mark!) or drill, just about £5 of parts!! It will take MUCH more to make them take stick packs!

[DaveG28]

Actually, couple of other thoughts:

1. When will any list appear, I'm waiting on it before going touring!!
2. This Saddle rule has another issue. Let's say someone submits one just before the end of Jan. How long to then get it in the shops?in what quantity? Will all who want them be able to in time for the season?

[DCM]

There are only certain rules that a Regional series can decide nout to use, and cells is not one of them.........

As someone who is actually on the BRCA committee, if you ask my advice I'd say don't buy anything until the official (not the touring car) list comes out.

G

that is fair comment, but when you got a region where lots run touring car, or have fully converted to lipo, you can't turn them away and have no championship can you, although they would be made fully aware that they couldn't use them at the BRCA finals.

[Northy]

that is fair comment, but when you got a region where lots run touring car, or have fully converted to lipo, you can't turn them away and have no championship can you, although they would be made fully aware that they couldn't use them at the BRCA finals.

You could let them race but they shouldn't be able to score points :cry:

G

[DCM]

I don't know of many who still got NiMH's locally, maybe the one or two who do a national, but everyone else, LiPo, and lots of them have Trakpower saddle packs, then as an umbrella service for racers, we can't turn them away, can we.

The BRCA have left a lot of people in a position where, in good faith (and I know you are going to say, shouldn't of bought them before the rules were made), mainstream lipo packs, to find now, they are useless, I can't see them selling them, or their saddle pack 4wd cars, they will just carry on, so we either get a poorly supported regional series, or be sensible about things.

The EB have only gone and alienated the club racers basically, for ditching duff and dangerous cells, thats how I see it. They would of given a slighly longer dimension for a saddle pack, and catered for everyone. But they have been short sighted in what they have done.

The BRCA is suppose to be there to service the needs of the RC Car community, not just the top level of racer, and by doing what they have done, they have ignored the wants of the mass of local and regional level racer.

[Northy]

And as NE regional rep, if someone with an 'illegal' pack of lipo's beats someone else with a 'legal' set of lipos/cells who gets it in the neck? :cry:

Plus it could go as far as someone suing the BRCA as the rules have not been upheld. :o

If the series is a BRCA series it has to run to BRCA rules. Sorry.

G

[niggs98]

as much as i hate to admit it Northy is right, i know that everyone has already brought there lipos dispite countless people saying dont untill the list is anounced just like they all did last year with 4200's and all moaned then dispite it being very well documented online on nearly every forum that i saw, hell i even have a pack of 3200 track powers, thats life i brought mine knowing full well that they might or might not be legal, then had the great fun of modifying my car into 2 or 3 different layouts so that they would fit and posted pics and how to's with it, as soon as i found that they more than likely wernt gonna be legal i changed my car over to stick pack so that it opened up my options as to what i could use. if someone brings out a saddlepack lipo that is legal and fits my car without modification then i will gladly run it as will most other people but i have to say, the brca is working to rules and regulations that have been around for long enough, ok they have to be modified slightly to accomodate lipo but it is the manufactures who have known the sub c measurments for more than long enough so why should the brca get it in the neck when it has stuck to what was and is the rules. i agree that 2 extra end caps shouldnt make a difference but at the same time those 2 extra end caps also require a lot of cars to be modified to fit them so who is really in the wrong ?????????? rant over i shall hide back underneath my stone :thumbsup:

[terry.sc]

Didn't we all go through this just after the AGM? Anyone who already uses lipo saddles for their racing won't suddenly find them illegal in the same race series unless they change their rules. As usual just like nimhs last year wait to see what's legal.thats typical of the brca trying to kill a class of racing No. As the BRCA chairman often states, you are the BRCA. The committee are there to organise racing based on the rules the majority of ordinary members voted for at the AGM. If you feel it will kill the class of racing then blame your fellow racers who didn't go and vote against the rule.
The ordinary members voted to adopt the same rules as the rest of the world, seems a sensible decision at face value.
unrelible exploding nimh cells and all the cycle crap that goes with themA lot of people have been surprised with the reliability, performance and lack of maintenance needed with todays cells over the old IBs. No one can complain about cell reliability if they are going to stick with Intellect cells.

[spenner]

no they are 1mm over size end to end with the heat shrink off.

id not blame em too


wont do any good im affraid! best that could happen is for off road to drop the EB for battery lists!

and it actually outlaws ALL trakpower lipo as they are not factory glued!!


neil take the cell out of the case there under size, likewise take your solder bars off the Nimh saddles and they fit the dimensions (ie you fit the bars you have made the CELL bigger than the dimensions, same as by adding a case)


yes they do, search on oople



no wanting to state the obvious there were NO rules for lipo

Hence the reason i put rules for Sub C, surely thats a good guidline!!!! It was obvious they wouldn't fit when they tried them in various cars!!!

Why not all get together and start your own Lipo 'Saddle' section in the BRCA ??? Other sections have done this to go there own way... I remember racing 10th Trucks in the late 90's, always had to be the first section to run the latest stuff. Funnily that section died after around 3-4 years when everyone got sick of buying stuff to be competitive, only to be unable to use it in other classes.

[Cockerill]

As the BRCA chairman often states, you are the BRCA. The committee are there to organise racing based on the rules the majority of ordinary members voted for at the AGM. If you feel it will kill the class of racing then blame your fellow racers who didn't go and vote against the rule.


WRONG

You can't play that card on this one. The racers turned up to the AGM, with rules proposed to get what we wanted. Unfortunately our best knowledge was not enough and we are left with what we have now, which is NOT what the majority wanted.

[terry.sc]

Guys Come on Which muppet made that rule up ?? :lol: and why ??Blame ROAR. The dimensions were already used in ROARs rules for saddle packs, ROAR then added a dispensation to make Trakpowers legal. EFRA has also adopted the same rules with the same dimensions. Ignoring the dimension problem, Trakpowers wouldn't be legal even if they fit the dimensions as the packs aren't factory glued.

Plenty of alternatives though from SMC, Maxamps and Reedy, although whether they are submitted or whether newer alternatives are submitted we won't know until the list is released.

[DaveG28]

Hence the reason i put rules for Sub C, surely thats a good guidline!!!! It was obvious they wouldn't fit when they tried them in various cars!!!

Why not all get together and start your own Lipo 'Saddle' section in the BRCA ??? Other sections have done this to go there own way... I remember racing 10th Trucks in the late 90's, always had to be the first section to run the latest stuff. Funnily that section died after around 3-4 years when everyone got sick of buying stuff to be competitive, only to be unable to use it in other classes.

Can you explain the logic? Sorry to pick on you but your the one who's pointed this out!!! How are we asking for an advantage? The existing saddles are no better than the stick packs which are allowed?? I'm not asking to be allowed to run the latest stuff ahead of you, I'm asking to be allowed to run what you can choose to run in the pred, Lipo, not better than you can run!?

What's unfair about my point of view on this?

To clarify (and I think I differ from Mark on this?) I can see why you could argue it's a bad precedent to allow a battery which requires modifying cars to run (not that it does in most cases I think?) or base the size on the old cells, except in doing so it is wiping several cars out of competitiveness potentialy! If there would definitely be an alternative legal cell I wouldn't gave as big a problem with it, although tbh it still would seem a bit harsh making all trakpower runners (including stick) buy new cells!

[DaveG28]

Blame ROAR. The dimensions were already used in ROARs rules for saddle packs, ROAR then added a dispensation to make Trakpowers legal. EFRA has also adopted the same rules with the same dimensions. Ignoring the dimension problem, Trakpowers wouldn't be legal even if they fit the dimensions as the packs aren't factory glued.

Plenty of alternatives though from SMC, Maxamps and Reedy, although whether they are submitted or whether newer alternatives are submitted we won't know until the list is released.


Are those cells hard cased and within the dimensions?

[discostu]

Didn't we all go through this just after the AGM? Anyone who already uses lipo saddles for their racing won't suddenly find them illegal in the same race series unless they change their rules. As usual just like nimhs last year wait to see what's legal.No. As the BRCA chairman often states, you are the BRCA. The committee are there to organise racing based on the rules the majority of ordinary members voted for at the AGM. If you feel it will kill the class of racing then blame your fellow racers who didn't go and vote against the rule.
The ordinary members voted to adopt the same rules as the rest of the world, seems a sensible decision at face value.
A lot of people have been surprised with the reliability, performance and lack of maintenance needed with todays cells over the old IBs. No one can complain about cell reliability if they are going to stick with Intellect cells.

i can see where your coming from we are all the brca and our votes are what bring these rules into play but there seems to be a lack of common sense when it comes to lipo saddle packs like i mentioned in my first poist on this thread if you are running a car like the d4, b44, bj4, b max, bx, xx4, 501x you will NOT be able to race using a lipo saddle pack for two reasons none of the current cells fit the dimmensions so they cant be used and the cells that fit the dimensions wont fit the car so what the brca have done in my opion is pretty much distroy modern 4wd racing in the uk by basicly pinalising at least 6 diffrent manufactures cos the cells dont fit where is the logic in that.

oh and it shouldn't be down to the manufactures to change there car designs or the battery designs on currently avalible products which have been avalible for a couple of years just because the brca have now writen a un reasonable rule.

and as for the dead line for companys like track power, reedy, smc who make saddle pack cells 31st jan is ridiculus.

stu

[spenner]

Can you explain the logic? Sorry to pick on you but your the one who's pointed this out!!! How are we asking for an advantage? The existing saddles are no better than the stick packs which are allowed?? I'm not asking to be allowed to run the latest stuff ahead of you, I'm asking to be allowed to run what you can choose to run in the pred, Lipo, not better than you can run!?

What's unfair about my point of view on this?


Im confused ????

Never said anyone was looking for any advantage!! (after all we can all buy the same cells)

Yes i can run Lipo in the Pred, BUT that is with me chopping the chassis to bits. Sticking filler in holes etc... etc . I am pretty sure i can get them to fit in the BMax by using the same methods.

All i am saying is a Rule has been made End of the matter... For the reason's above. I DON'T want to have to chop, fill my chassis to get cells to fit. Instead i will wait for cells which are made to correct dimensions to be made and then i will run them. (I have been told the REEDY lipo Saddles are right size ????) £109 a pack though (so i was informed)

Hope that clears it up.

[Northy]

Do nimh cells not exist anymore then? :eh?:

G

[DaveG28]

Im confused ????

Never said anyone was looking for any advantage!! (after all we can all buy the same cells)

Yes i can run Lipo in the Pred, BUT that is with me chopping the chassis to bits. Sticking filler in holes etc... etc . I am pretty sure i can get them to fit in the BMax by using the same methods.

All i am saying is a Rule has been made End of the matter... For the reason's above. I DON'T want to have to chop, fill my chassis to get cells to fit. Instead i will wait for cells which are made to correct dimensions to be made and then i will run them. (I have been told the REEDY lipo Saddles are right size ????) £109 a pack though (so i was informed)

Hope that clears it up.

Yes it does sorry, understand more of where your coming from now! though you'd be lucky to get the Bmax done even cutting it up, it would also require brand new motor mount/central spur housing!!

[RcRob]

Do nimh cells not exist anymore then? :eh?:

G

No...

[spenner]

Yes it does sorry, understand more of where your coming from now! though you'd be lucky to get the Bmax done even cutting it up, it would also require brand new motor mount/central spur housing!!


I reckon you could do it with some chopping... so much so that the first BMAX owner to be able to fit a stick lipo in there car so it runs i am willing to give them a brand new Tekin Stick lipo pack for there troubles. Happy chopping ;)

How fair is that ?

[Doomanic]

I have been told the REEDY lipo Saddles are right size ???? £109 a pack though (so i was informed)

So £24 over the price limit then.;)

[discostu]

i wouldnt count on the reedy or the smc cells fitting dimmentions as the lage mah cells are 25mm or over

and as for nimh cells yes they still exsit but with tight budgets and so called credit crunch £200 to spend on batts for a years racing when it could be £60 doesnt seem to cut it not to mention the fancy chargers discharges.

stu

[terry.sc]

WRONG

You can't play that card on this one. The racers turned up to the AGM, with rules proposed to get what we wanted. Unfortunately our best knowledge was not enough and we are left with what we have now, which is NOT what the majority wanted.Unfortunately these things happen, the racers voted for a sensible rule that meant everyone around the world runs to the same rules. As you said we didn't understand what we have voted for and unfortunately as all the various section AGMs take place concurrently the person who should have been there to point it out was in his own section AGM.
If you reread what I wrote I said that the rules we have are what the racers voted for at the AGM, I didn't state that what was voted for is what they actually wanted when they had time to look over the rules afterwards.

Don't get me wrong, I believe we seriously messed up here as being a new technology we, as racers, didn't actually know exactly what was being voted in. Like in modified touring last year, I'm sure that the dimensions rule would have been changed if a bigger size had been voted in at the EFRA AGM. Unfortunately for Trakpower the battery manufacturers who are EFRA affiliate members and were consulted on lipos are Orion, LRP and SMC, none of them likely to alter the rules to allow Trakpowers.

In a similar way 1/12th oval also made a major mess up. They now have a brushless class which has an £65 brushless ESC price limit, yet have no limits at all on the brushless motors - how mad is that. Both classes have to wait until the next AGM to fix the rules.

[Northy]

£200? :eh?:

3 packs saw me through all National, Regional and club racing in 2008, 2wd and 4wd. ;)

G

[discostu]

maybe we could take our rear prop shafts out and rear belts and if you own a xx4 you could just use a skill saw and chop a hole in the belt tunnel to get a stick pack in at least it will look like a 4wd car it may handle like the brca rules
(rubbish) but hey at least it will be legal

[discostu]

£200? :eh?:

3 packs saw me through all National, Regional and club racing in 2008, 2wd and 4wd. ;)

G

ok £60 per pack times 3 = £180 compaired to £60 plus a new car if you are unfortunate to run a HB, AE, LOSI, TAMIYA, YOKOMO, JCONCEPT but you maybe lucky.

[Northy]

ok £60 per pack times 3 = £180 compaired to £60 plus a new car if you are unfortunate to run a HB, AE, LOSI, TAMIYA, YOKOMO, JCONCEPT but you maybe lucky.

And for many years there has been no need whatsoever to pay £60 a pack! :woot:

Anyway - we're going off topic......

G

[Cockerill]

the racers voted for a sensible rule

Sorry to say this, but your wrong again. We didn't actually get to vote on what we wanted, something to do with us having to stick to EB rules, as written elsewhere.

[discostu]

no you are correct but that is the price the top manfactures cells are retailed at orion etc i can get cells for £25 ish but newcomers int the sport WILL bye from shop's and get sold £60 cells as the saddle lipos are not within the rules.

[terry.sc]

The EB have only gone and alienated the club racers basically, for ditching duff and dangerous cells, thats how I see it. They would of given a slighly longer dimension for a saddle pack, and catered for everyone. But they have been short sighted in what they have done.Club racers are the one group of users that the new lipo rules don't effect. The BRCA rules are only mandatory at BRCA sanctioned events, the BRCA nationals and the BRCA regionals. If other championships and clubs want to run to the BRCA rules that is down to them. At my local club I don't think any of the 'club racers' even bother checking the batteries they buy are on a BRCA list or not as the club does not have a rule that the batteries everyone uses must be on the EB list. This also means all the 1/5th bike national racers at the local club can use their soft cased lipos from their bikes in their cars and buggies, for example.

As for classing all nimhs as "duff and dangerous" I now run Ener-G 4600 saddle packs in pan cars, these cells are loved by the 1/12th lads. After the race put them in the pit box and leave them there until next weeks race. Take them out, discharge and charge them and that's it. They don't self discharge much, after 9 months all have been totally reliable and not head any stories of them exploding.

[terry.sc]

Sorry to say this, but your wrong again. We didn't actually get to vote on what we wanted, something to do with us having to stick to EB rules, as written elsewhere.The 1/10th off road rules state that all batteries must be on the EB approved list, that rule has been there for some years. What was voted for was just to raise the voltage limit to 7.4v, nothing more, nothing less, which is what was wanted as it allows lipos.

The original proposal for 1/10 OR included dimensions big enough to include Trakpower saddles, but unfortunately what was also agreed was that if EFRA voted in lipos then the EB should create a specification which matched the EFRA spec. A perfectly logical idea as there's no point the BRCA voting in a rule that could mean any pack made for EU and the US was illegal in the UK. Unfortunately no one foresaw that instead of creating our own lipo specification the flawed ROAR rules would be adopted to the letter.

With hindsight the racers should have stuck to the specs in Chris Longs proposal and the section should have submitted that specification to the Electric Board, the same way touring cars did the year before. Unfortunately none of us can see into the future.

[terry.sc]

and as for nimh cells yes they still exsit but with tight budgets and so called credit crunch £200 to spend on batts for a years racing when it could be £60 doesnt seem to cut it not to mention the fancy chargers discharges. As Northy said, even if you buy cells at full price from a shop, it's been a long time since you need to buy £60 cells to be competitive. Also those of us still running nimhs would also need to buy 'fancy' chargers/balancers as well as lipos. Shops will always sell £60 'team spec' cells as long as people feel they 'need' that extra hundredth of a volt even if they crash every other lap.

One thing that's usually forgotten about, even if you pay £200 on batteries, how does that cost compare with how much petrol/diesel you are using going to nationals and regionals?

[mark christopher]

Didn't we all go through this just after the AGM? Anyone who already uses lipo saddles for their racing won't suddenly find them illegal in the same race series unless they change their rules. As usual just like nimhs last year wait to see what's legal.No. As the BRCA chairman often states, you are the BRCA. The committee are there to organise racing based on the rules the majority of ordinary members voted for at the AGM. If you feel it will kill the class of racing then blame your fellow racers who didn't go and vote against the rule.
The ordinary members voted to adopt the same rules as the rest of the world, seems a sensible decision at face value.
A lot of people have been surprised with the reliability, performance and lack of maintenance needed with todays cells over the old IBs. No one can complain about cell reliability if they are going to stick with Intellect cells.
they were not allowed to vote on what they wanted!

Hence the reason i put rules for Sub C, surely thats a good guidline!!!! It was obvious they wouldn't fit when they tried them in various cars!!!

Why not all get together and start your own Lipo 'Saddle' section in the BRCA ??? Other sections have done this to go there own way... I remember racing 10th Trucks in the late 90's, always had to be the first section to run the latest stuff. Funnily that section died after around 3-4 years when everyone got sick of buying stuff to be competitive, only to be unable to use it in other classes.

yup but sub c rule is for the cell, not any pacaking or battery bars, so why should lipo have to be a case dimension, when the cell is only used in sub c

[mark christopher]

this may ruffle a few feathers and upset some but here goes..............................


i personally think the BRCA and eb bodies have let the majority of racers down

they are there to promote the sport of model car racing, and the goveners, who are voted in should represent the members who voted for them, they should not follow efra/ifmar and go against what the majority want, which is a goood fair set of rules.

not many cars require major work to take saddle packs, but now all those saddle pack cars that run lipo have no choice but to go nimh or buy a lipo stick car, this is the last thing elec off road needs as its growing imensly with allot of tc racers comin over. i really enjoy driving my buggy, but the politics is spoiling it at the moment

it will be interesting to see how many championships and clubs drop the brce/eb battery rules!

the worksop international has!!

i have certainly lost any confidence i had in the system for fairness. in this instance as the governing body has miss represented the members wishes! im vice chairman of 10th ic section and if i had not cerried out what the members wanted i would expect to have a vote of no confidence put against me and either removed from my post or asked to step down.

http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15838&highlight=lipo+poll

[Adam Skelding]

I can't say I'm stunned by the decision, the BRCA seemed to dig it's heels in early.

If Orion, LRP and SMC are on the Affiliate member list, where are their legal saddle LiPo's?

Hopefully, regions (which is where this rule is going to hurt most) will allow, if they can a relaxed view on the LiPo regs. But as G has mentioned, if anything goes wrong at a BRCA sanctioned meeting the organisers are in for a rough time.

As Terry.sc has said, the BRCA have made an error, let's hope they learn from it. Hopefully, they have someone on the board next time who 'Understands what they are voting for' before they 'seriously mess up again'.

[DaveG28]

On a separate note, but still on topic, would anyone be against an Interim list being available of approved cells which then got updated as more were approved?

Just asking as the submission deadline is end of Jan, give say a week or two to test/confirm and we may not have a list until Mid Feb, meaning no-one can sort there batteries if going Lipo (even stick!) till then?? Any batteries bought before then could be junk!

BRCA may already be planning this, but if there's no objections I'll email and ask?

[Chrislong]

My thought is the BRCA have been in a difficult position. As with the fiasco of the NIMH cell rules 12 months ago, and the exploding cells (Yes modern Ener-G cells DO explode, and let out a blue flame like a blow-torch!! as do new generation of IB's, just not as much as 2007 cells), nimh cells have a bad reputation that is justified, and still is. Anybody who wants to use them needs there plums testing.

So with all this, racers have got a little pissed off with forking out on cells, maintaining them religiously between every charge and they still loose performance or go pop... so racers have created a market for Lipo by choosing to use them at any meeting they could before any guideline written for the manufacturers to follow. I for one have done this.

With racers doing this, clubs and series have allowed Lipo, such as Worksop, NE indoor regionals, Broxtowe series etc. Clubs that try to dissallow Lipo have suffered, such as York early in winter (rules changed in the week before to avoid loosing attendance's), Kidderminster etc. Us, as racers, have forced them to be accepted at anything but BRCA sanctioned events.

So with the bad reputation Nimhs have created, racers have forced Lipo's in faster than the BRCA could hold an AGM. This isn't the fault of the BRCA or the manufacturer (or anyone to that matter), just unfortunate circumstances.

What should have happened, and we try to make happen, is the BRCA allow what we are currently using (use of a combination of sense and hindsight). At the AGM we were there in force, big attendance, we tried to write the rules to the letter there and then, but not allowed, we asked for some assurance the rules would be what we want - we got that assurance, but they are not what we want. We asked for the guideline & provisional list to be available early, this didn't happen either.

Soooo, what do we do? Well I am running stick cells currently in both my cars, so no issue for me. But how do we make our voice heard, we have tried and failed, so do we do it by bocotting the BRCA sanctioned events? well thats up to you, but if that happened it would force the people who don't listen to listen, the rules are written for us, without us there is no event.

Id like for there to be a series, perhaps at Blyth, clashing with nationals, and i'll happily attend (not due to the Lipo decision, but due to the choice of venue for 2009 national (my opinion only)). Perhaps a resurection of the Radio Race Car series?

[ashleyb4]

You can fit a stick pack lipo in a xx4 with a bit of modification.

But the BRCA rules are made to make the best for our sport the best compromise without rulling out any cars or cells but also having safety in mind. There will be saddle pack lipo's that fit cars dont worry about it the companys want to make money so they will make them.

A

[DCM]

I can't say I'm stunned by the decision, the BRCA seemed to dig it's heels in early.

If Orion, LRP and SMC are on the Affiliate member list, where are their legal saddle LiPo's?

Hopefully, regions (which is where this rule is going to hurt most) will allow, if they can a relaxed view on the LiPo regs. But as G has mentioned, if anything goes wrong at a BRCA sanctioned meeting the organisers are in for a rough time.

As Terry.sc has said, the BRCA have made an error, let's hope they learn from it. Hopefully, they have someone on the board next time who 'Understands what they are voting for' before they 'seriously mess up again'.

Actually, the only issue, in reality, at a regional, is if someone is using batteries out of the sanctioned list, and is allowed to go to the EOS finals, then they will have to beg/borrow legal cells. In the end, not all of us do Nationals, and there are lots and lots who do regionals, as a whole series, or the ones that are close to their home club. These guys and girls may well of invested in LiPo in the past year, for the shear convenience of the power cell. If you run your Regionals directly to the rules, then lots will now not be able to race.

I don't remember a huge muck up over brushless, but LiPo seems to of been handled with a complete fudge.

And as much as it grates me, I agree with Mark, this rule will cause problems at ALL levels. if you have a 4wd that can cater for a stick pack lipo, then you are going to be at an advantage over a 5 min run at national and regional level. The rule should of allowed ALL cars formats to use LiPo and NiMH, or they should never of passed LiPo.

[Chrislong]

I agree, less fudge with Brushless. Perhaps it was because fewer racers was using Brushless when it got in, or because Brushless hadn't stop developing very quickly at that time. I don't know. Very different, but I remember some doubt/resistance about it ever being accepted.... now looking back its the best thing since before sliced bread!

[DCM]

which makes the complete fudge over LiPo look just daft, the fact that so many wanted it, the fact that there were already a good level of common sense coming from manufacturers too.

Brushless is still going through a high development area, in type of motor winding/construction, and ESC hardware and software.

[Northy]

Actually, the only issue, in reality, at a regional, is if someone is using batteries out of the sanctioned list, and is allowed to go to the EOS finals, then they will have to beg/borrow legal cells.

Again, if you run a BRCA sanctioned regional series you can not pick and choose what rules you use and what rules you don't. If it is not a sanctioned series results do not count towards driver formulas.


I agree, less fudge with Brushless. Perhaps it was because fewer racers was using Brushless when it got in, or because Brushless hadn't stop developing very quickly at that time.

The difference was the rules for brushless motors (speedos don't matter) were written very early (sizes, connector type etc) so all were built to the rules and homologation was then pretty much a certainty.

G

[Howard1650]

this may ruffle a few feathers and upset some but here goes..............................


i personally think the BRCA and eb bodies have let the majority of racers down

they are there to promote the sport of model car racing, and the goveners, who are voted in should represent the members who voted for them, they should not follow efra/ifmar and go against what the majority want, which is a goood fair set of rules.

not many cars require major work to take saddle packs, but now all those saddle pack cars that run lipo have no choice but to go nimh or buy a lipo stick car, this is the last thing elec off road needs as its growing imensly with allot of tc racers comin over. i really enjoy driving my buggy, but the politics is spoiling it at the moment

it will be interesting to see how many championships and clubs drop the brce/eb battery rules!

the worksop international has!!

i have certainly lost any confidence i had in the system for fairness. in this instance as the governing body has miss represented the members wishes! im vice chairman of 10th ic section and if i had not cerried out what the members wanted i would expect to have a vote of no confidence put against me and either removed from my post or asked to step down.

http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15838&highlight=lipo+poll



I have to agree with the above note. This decision just destroys any credibility the BRCA had. I don't even see the point of the BRCA. The organisers of successful and popular events will do and are doing what they want, and the drivers love it. It is just fun, welcoming and realistic. These events (and web sites like oOple) are push up driver numbers. The BRCA will be washed away if it is not careful.

[mark christopher]

My thought is the BRCA have been in a difficult position. As with the fiasco of the NIMH cell rules 12 months ago, and the exploding cells (Yes modern Ener-G cells DO explode, and let out a blue flame like a blow-torch!! as do new generation of IB's, just not as much as 2007 cells), nimh cells have a bad reputation that is justified, and still is. Anybody who wants to use them needs there plums testing.

So with all this, racers have got a little pissed off with forking out on cells, maintaining them religiously between every charge and they still loose performance or go pop... so racers have created a market for Lipo by choosing to use them at any meeting they could before any guideline written for the manufacturers to follow. I for one have done this.

With racers doing this, clubs and series have allowed Lipo, such as Worksop, NE indoor regionals, Broxtowe series etc. Clubs that try to dissallow Lipo have suffered, such as York early in winter (rules changed in the week before to avoid loosing attendance's), Kidderminster etc. Us, as racers, have forced them to be accepted at anything but BRCA sanctioned events.

So with the bad reputation Nimhs have created, racers have forced Lipo's in faster than the BRCA could hold an AGM. This isn't the fault of the BRCA or the manufacturer (or anyone to that matter), just unfortunate circumstances.

What should have happened, and we try to make happen, is the BRCA allow what we are currently using (use of a combination of sense and hindsight). At the AGM we were there in force, big attendance, we tried to write the rules to the letter there and then, but not allowed, we asked for some assurance the rules would be what we want - we got that assurance, but they are not what we want. We asked for the guideline & provisional list to be available early, this didn't happen either.

Soooo, what do we do? Well I am running stick cells currently in both my cars, so no issue for me. But how do we make our voice heard, we have tried and failed, so do we do it by bocotting the BRCA sanctioned events? well thats up to you, but if that happened it would force the people who don't listen to listen, the rules are written for us, without us there is no event.

Id like for there to be a series, perhaps at Blyth, clashing with nationals, and i'll happily attend (not due to the Lipo decision, but due to the choice of venue for 2009 national (my opinion only)). Perhaps a resurection of the Radio Race Car series?
well said chris
id like to see that!!

You can fit a stick pack lipo in a xx4 with a bit of modification.

But the BRCA rules are made to make the best for our sport the best compromise without rulling out any cars or cells but also having safety in mind. There will be saddle pack lipo's that fit cars dont worry about it the companys want to make money so they will make them.

A


go on then ash, by not allowing saddle pack cars to run lipo and with a cut off of the end of jan, how there going to be more saddles out?

your bit in bold, they HAVE ruled out cars and cells, if you wantto run lipo so bit of a daft statement

there is no longet a level playing field for all in off road in choice of cells, and definatly no fairness.
just hope this does not hurt 10th off road and put all this new blood coming in off

[ashleyb4]

Manafactures would have these details avaliable to them before we do so the chances are they will be able to to make legal lipo cells before the deadline and companys will do it to make money.

A

[mark christopher]

Manafactures would have these details avaliable to them before we do so the chances are they will be able to to make legal lipo cells before the deadline and companys will do it to make money.

A
so ash in 25 days thay can have a cell sourced/made a case designed, mould made then manufacuted, the pack assembled and to the eb board in 25 days? is that what your saying?
we got the sizes the day after efra agm thats when they were made, how would manufactures get them earlier?

[Chrislong]

Manafactures would have these details avaliable to them before we do so the chances are they will be able to to make legal lipo cells before the deadline and companys will do it to make money.

A

Ash mate, your making an unjustified presumption which is wrong. The rules are released to all like they have been and thats it, there is no list written and kept from us for several weeks as everyone has been waiting for it - racers, shop and manufacturers.

[Northy]

so ash in 25 days thay can have a cell sourced/made a case designed, mould made then manufacuted, the pack assembled and to the eb board in 25 days? is that what your saying?

Don't forget tested by the EB ;)

G

[ashleyb4]

If they want the buisness they can do it in 25 days.

A

[Adam Skelding]

If they want the buisness they can do it in 25 days.

A

Come work for us if you can do it in 25 days ;):woot:

[ashleyb4]

The manafactures will know the ROAR EFRA and BRCA Lipo specifications before they are released to the general public its common sence. (Look it up on wiki if you dont know what it is)

A

[Chrislong]

Perhaps its not about just doing it, but lead time of changing production lines, modifying moulds, automated machinery - making, testing and passing samples before sending out to the EB - then before we get them, clearing out stock which overnight has become obsolete, modifying that stock and then packaging, and shipping it out to the shops (don't forget a lot of stuff is made oversea's).

25 days is not a lot of time.

[DCM]

I know of one or two people who make LiPo packs, and were waiting on the EFRA rules before even looking at making saddle lipo, as they see that, if made to EFRA, they will be accepted globaly, now, if the homologation list was left open, then great, but as everyone has said, above, 25 days just isn't enough time.

Chris, I agree, the only way you would force a rethink, is a complete bouycot of BRCA meetings. But I can't see that happening, as the top guys, it will be a contractual agreement.

[Chrislong]

It was only from top of my head, I hope nobody took that comment seriously :lol:. Although if that did happen, how many are contractually abliged to enter? Id loosely estimate on 20. If thats all that enter then it would be meaningless anyway, especially if there were 150 entries at a Schumacher/RRC/Joe Bloggs series. But its all theoretical and impossible in reality.

BUT, as a group if we make a stand in our mass's on any particular subject then we are this strong, as an individual or a small group we are not.

[DaveG28]

Perhaps its not about just doing it, but lead time of changing production lines, modifying moulds, automated machinery - making, testing and passing samples before sending out to the EB - then before we get them, clearing out stock which overnight has become obsolete, modifying that stock and then packaging, and shipping it out to the shops (don't forget a lot of stuff is made oversea's).

25 days is not a lot of time.

Absolutely right! Depending what materials they each use and how much is inhouse some may be able to remould cases quickly, but then they need to test case strength, potentially repackage all internals, and do all testing! Plus work out new unit costs going forward do they can price them! Then as Chris says removing stock/ordering new parts/packaging/sending to shops once they pass the EB!

On top of this, I imagine some of them outsource construction, you can't just ring a supplier and say "just shave a few mm off the cases from now on bud, cheers".

Plus, how big a Market is this? Do they make enough from saddle packs (or maybe stick packs too for TP) to justify all that??

[Mike Hudson]

I guess with 4wd it'll just be a race between a catsx, pred, x5 and a kyosho then :yawn::(:cry: The rest are screwed unless manufacturers perform a miracle... or the brca sorts something out like allow the current saddles currently available for a while until new ones are available that abide by all the rules.

[turbo_brick]

Can the BRCA make an exception to the rule for 1 year like ROAR have done to allow the saddle packs that are available now??

Then add packs over the year to make a rolling list of cells, then hopefully by next year there will be some available.

Peter

[KevLee]

Yes i can run Lipo in the Pred, BUT that is with me chopping the chassis to bits. Sticking filler in holes etc...



Who's modifying your pred Spenner :D? And its hardly chopping the chassis apart, its just 3 new holes..... but you wouldn't know that would you ;)

[warped]

What dissapoints me is that rule 2.6 still only includes nicd / nimh starter packs and not lipo.

I have budget 20c lipos bought for £25, which are more than adequate for my purposes. - They comply with all the specs but the manufacturer never submitted them for homologation last year, and I dont expect them to as they're not really aimed at the racing market.

This has always been the case with budget cells.

Last time I checked all the cells on the touring car lipo list were significantly more expensive.

Why should I be able to run low end nimh cells which aren't homologated, but not LIPO?

Hopefully this can be changed at next years agm.

[Northy]

What packs are those Warped? :eh?:

G

[mark christopher]

as i see it the only way now is for the 10th off road section, comitee to make the decision to relax the rule on cells and not follow the eb, the eb seem set in their ways, the comittee need to do whats best for the section, not the eb!!!

the rules as they stand now not only effect trakpower, but other companies.
its not like there have been any problems with any of the cells in use, nor has there been any performance advantage! those who run 3200 saddles and not loosing out to those running 4800 stick packs

[ashleyb4]

I think we should see what happens i was a little heated earlier :blush::( Sorry

A

[Kopite]

The most important thing here is to do whatever encourages more people into the hobby, and keeps exisiting people interested in the hobby.

In the current financial climate, the numbers that continue to race could dwindle quite considerably this year. To not allow the saddle LiPo's for the coming year could be really detrimental to the ongoing interest in this hobby

[SHY]

Does anyone with liasons to the EB know what they have in the works?

Are they talking to any associated manufacturers?

Do they expect any manufacturer to make legal saddles in time for the LiPo list? (Which I guess will be released mid february?)

Why not inform the public?

The EB list will effect every EFRA member country in Europe.

Even racers are very confused about this in Scandinavia. For the local racers in Norway it's easy as we chose over here to allow the ROAR list as well. But once you go racing internationally you're stuck with EFRA rules again...

No matter what type of batteries you use in 1:10 OR, it would never ever be an advantage! So in fact there's not really any need to inspect batteries at all! The only valid argument as I see it is as to safety...

[KeithA]

Just my initial thoughts - I read a few posts back that the Reedy saddle pack should be OK (which it should on length, ie. 2 x 69mm = 138mm) but I think the height rule has also been reduced from 25mm to 23.5mm which would make this saddle pack and some of the other stick Lipos on the TC list (Reedy/Core) too high.

[Belsten]

Perhaps its not about just doing it, but lead time of changing production lines, modifying moulds, automated machinery - making, testing and passing samples before sending out to the EB - then before we get them, clearing out stock which overnight has become obsolete, modifying that stock and then packaging, and shipping it out to the shops (don't forget a lot of stuff is made oversea's).

25 days is not a lot of time.

I agree, its only actually 18 working days though, cant see them laying on overtime etc etc

[Swiss]

I really can't understand why people are frustrated/annoyed if the saddle pack LiPo's do not become legal. Surely if you prucahsed these as your one and only purchase for the forthcoming 2009 season, you must have realised that there was laways the possibility that they wouldn't be legalised, (I appreciate, if your current cells were a little tired, mine certainly are after a years racing, but personally when the conditions are so slippery who needs max. punch), the BRCA is not responsable for you making that descision. All the members do a excellent job, and surely these posts really make them feel un-appreciated. I am sure, if they turned their attentions to other pastimes, there wouldn't be many candidtaes...
I run two cars that are very LiPo friendly, and still haven't made the switch, simply becuase I thought I would let this all settle down before making my descicion.
How it would detract people from racing, I do not know...

[SHY]

Well, I'm sorry to be so frank. But when you don't listen to what the majority of racers want - then you're not doing an excellent job IMHO. I have no doubt they do a great job but in this matter they've done a mistake IMHO. I for one tried to contact the EB on behalf of our national federation, in order to discuss a "common proposal" in good time before the AGM. But there was no interest in this whatsoever. They wanted to go solo and claimed to have more than enough experience to make the best decision.

Democracy has prevailed for a reason... and looking back you can then say that WE ALL agreed upon this... They should now then not be surprised if they receive some criticism.

EFRA was very late... ROAR rules were in place already, and had been used one whole year. But heck no, let's invent the gunpowder all over again...

And it must be real fun for a manufacturer to now design a chassis that will accomodate two sets of rules... :eh?:

[mark christopher]

I think we should see what happens i was a little heated earlier :blush::( Sorry

A

ash mate, its happened!!!

I really can't understand why people are frustrated/annoyed if the saddle pack LiPo's do not become legal. Surely if you prucahsed these as your one and only purchase for the forthcoming 2009 season, you must have realised that there was laways the possibility that they wouldn't be legalised, (I appreciate, if your current cells were a little tired, mine certainly are after a years racing, but personally when the conditions are so slippery who needs max. punch), the BRCA is not responsable for you making that descision. All the members do a excellent job, and surely these posts really make them feel un-appreciated. I am sure, if they turned their attentions to other pastimes, there wouldn't be many candidtaes...
I run two cars that are very LiPo friendly, and still haven't made the switch, simply becuase I thought I would let this all settle down before making my descicion.
How it would detract people from racing, I do not know...
at the agm the members wanted saddle packs, and a bigger dimension
if have not been to worksop and see how many racers use lipo saddle, even reedy etc etc, se how happy thay are, se how much fun they are having.

there was a post some where stating that the eb wanted to make sure things were equal and fair, that has failed, as anyone with a lipo saddle car that wants to run saddle , can not do so, unfair, and definatly not equal!!

[mark christopher]

Well, I'm sorry to be so frank. But when you don't listen to what the majority of racers want - then you're not doing an excellent job IMHO. I have no doubt they do a great job but in this matter they've done a mistake IMHO. I for one tried to contact the EB on behalf of our national federation, in order to discuss a "common proposal" in good time before the AGM. But there was no interest in this whatsoever. They wanted to go solo and claimed to have more than enough experience to make the best decision.

Democracy has prevailed for a reason... and looking back you can then say that WE ALL agreed upon this... They should now then not be surprised if they receive some criticism.

EFRA was very late... ROAR rules were in place already, and had been used one whole year. But heck no, let's invent the gunpowder all over again...

And it must be real fun for a manufacturer to now design a chassis that will accomodate two sets of rules... :eh?:
well said that man!

[Swiss]

there was a post some where stating that the eb wanted to make sure things were equal and fair, that has failed, as anyone with a lipo saddle car that wants to run saddle , can not do so, unfair, and definatly not equal!![/quote]

How is it unfair... They can run cells, if they had a saddle configuration like anyone else.

[Chrislong]

On the track cells have no disadvantage. But who really wants to run cells? soldering, equalising, loosing performance within relatively few charges, needing several packs.... the advantage in Lipo's is in their convenience in the pits, it brings far more enjoyment.

[Belsten]

I will be running cells in 09 :blush:

[discostu]

I really can't understand why people are frustrated/annoyed if the saddle pack LiPo's do not become legal. Surely if you prucahsed these as your one and only purchase for the forthcoming 2009 season, you must have realised that there was laways the possibility that they wouldn't be legalised, (I appreciate, if your current cells were a little tired, mine certainly are after a years racing, but personally when the conditions are so slippery who needs max. punch), the BRCA is not responsable for you making that descision. All the members do a excellent job, and surely these posts really make them feel un-appreciated. I am sure, if they turned their attentions to other pastimes, there wouldn't be many candidtaes...
I run two cars that are very LiPo friendly, and still haven't made the switch, simply becuase I thought I would let this all settle down before making my descicion.
How it would detract people from racing, I do not know...

people are frustrated because they have purchased these cells because they are the only ones to fit the majority of buggys i say again D4 B44 BJ4 501X B MAX BX and nimh cells are unrealible and expencive.

ive been reading the post and how is the cell size the manufactures fault all the current saddle pack lipos are well within a resonable size 2mm here or there i dont see how its fair the brca should dictate the manufactures should spend more money and resorses before the end of jan because the brca are being unreasonable.

[SHY]

people are frustrated because they have purchased these cells because they are the only ones to fit the majority of buggys i say again D4 B44 BJ4 501X B MAX BX and nimh cells are unrealible and expencive.

ive been reading the post and how is the cell size the manufactures fault all the current saddle pack lipos are well within a resonable size 2mm here or there i dont see how its fair the brca should dictate the manufactures should spend more money and resorses before the end of jan because the brca are being unreasonable.

The ROAR rules were there 1 year in advance. If the EB had this planned long before the AGM (which I have a strong feeling they did), why not talk openly with the accociated manufacturers and check as to LiPo saddles:
-can it be made at all? Can you make a proto?
-are you willing to make them?
-how much time do you need to develop, manufacture and market them?
-and what do YOU think is reasonable as to size restrictions?

[Mike Hudson]

I think lipos are potentially quicker on track as you have more power out of corners and less weight and still legaly heavy enough and you know your going to dump either! :lol:

[Swiss]

On the track cells have no disadvantage. But who really wants to run cells? soldering, equalising, loosing performance within relatively few charges, needing several packs.... the advantage in Lipo's is in their convenience in the pits, it brings far more enjoyment.

I totally agree Chris, there are some advantages to the LiPo than the NiMh Cell... My thoughts was not based around that at all, just I don't understand how anyone can moan, if they purchased the LiPo saddle packs knowing they was not BRCA approved.
It's like secound guessing whitch tyres are going to be approved for the Euro's, buying the wrong ones, then complaining.

[Adam Skelding]

there was a post some where stating that the eb wanted to make sure things were equal and fair, that has failed, as anyone with a lipo saddle car that wants to run saddle , can not do so, unfair, and definatly not equal!!

How is it unfair... They can run cells, if they had a saddle configuration like anyone else.[/QUOTE]

Stick LiPo = 7.4v and about half the mass of a 7.2v NiMh pack.
Apples and Oranges
Having checked wheel rpm on my best 7.2v packs and a LiPo pack there is a significant rpm difference.
Add to this the mass advantage of using LiPo compared to NiMh in handling.

I think you'll see it can be shown to be quite an un-level playing field.

As someone said earlier if LiPo can't be used in all cars in a class, they why allow it at all?

[DaveG28]

I totally agree Chris, there are some advantages to the LiPo than the NiMh Cell... My thoughts was not based around that at all, just I don't understand how anyone can moan, if they purchased the LiPo saddle packs knowing they was not BRCA approved.
It's like secound guessing whitch tyres are going to be approved for the Euro's, buying the wrong ones, then complaining.

Yet again, it is not just that, it is that there are no saddles that are legal at all for Lipo.

[David Church]

Yet again, it is not just that, it is that there are no saddles that are legal at all for Lipo.


YET!!!!!!!! ???????????;)

[Chrislong]

I totally agree Chris, there are some advantages to the LiPo than the NiMh Cell... My thoughts was not based around that at all, just I don't understand how anyone can moan, if they purchased the LiPo saddle packs knowing they was not BRCA approved.
It's like secound guessing whitch tyres are going to be approved for the Euro's, buying the wrong ones, then complaining.

I know DaveG has said this, thats what the issue is as the majority who bought cells ahead of the list expect to have to buy more (its still less expense than running Nimhs). Its not so much the people who have bought them now have cells for club racing only, but that they have no alternative legal saddle Lipo to buy and with running Lipo the thought of having no choice but going back to Nimhs is not attractive.... ... but who knows, something might be on the horizon. I hope so. Personally it doesn't effect me directly, as I run stick and expected to buy legal ones once known, I just feel sorry for any Saddle only car owners.

Perhaps in time 1 of 3 things could happen: we will either get saddles within the rules; rules changed at next AGM; or cars will be developed to not be saddle only configuration.

In the meantime..... dare I say it (yes)..... buy a Cat SX! :)

[Chrislong]

YET!!!!!!!! ???????????;)

Youz knows somethings??? :woot:

[DCM]

In the meantime..... dare I say it (yes)..... buy a Cat SX! :)

Or a Tamiya DB-01!!!

[warped]

What packs are those Warped? :eh?:

G

Yeah racing 20c 3200 sticks.

[Northy]

Got a link?

If it's these:

http://www.rcmart.com/catalog/rc-batterylipo-yeah-racing-lipo-pack-3200mah-lp0032-p-25829.html?cPath=52_973

Unless the wires are 0.4mm in diameter then they don't fit the size rules anyway.

G

[sly]

Got a link?

If it's these:

http://www.rcmart.com/catalog/rc-batterylipo-yeah-racing-lipo-pack-3200mah-lp0032-p-25829.html?cPath=52_973

Unless the wires are 0.4mm in diameter then they don't fit the size rules anyway.

G

Which wire 0.4mm dia?


I have used them Yeah racing packs all 2008 and they have been great and i have zero problem with the £44 i spend on them being wasted to get a pack of lipos that are within rules. the £44 spend was far less then the £100ish on 3 packs of budget Nimh`s.

[Doomanic]

They are all over fleabay, I was hoping they'd get on the list as splashing out on top notch packs for Shorty would be overkill.

[warped]

yes they do fit the size rules. (at least as I read them)

The stipulation as to wires being included in the dimension is only if they exit at the side of the pack not the end.
(another odd reg if you ask me)

[Northy]

That's odd :bored:

G

[David Church]

Youz knows somethings??? :woot:


No, not really....

But we did go through almost the same thing last year, no cells were legal, everyone panic'd, then all of a sudden loads were legal. It could possibly be the same for this year:D

[Chrislong]

No, not really....

But we did go through almost the same thing last year, no cells were legal, everyone panic'd, then all of a sudden loads were legal. It could possibly be the same for this year:D

I agree that it could be, it'd be nice if that was so. Only time will tell.

[mark christopher]

there was a post some where stating that the eb wanted to make sure things were equal and fair, that has failed, as anyone with a lipo saddle car that wants to run saddle , can not do so, unfair, and definatly not equal!!

How is it unfair... They can run cells, if they had a saddle configuration like anyone else.[/quote]
yes they can but those with stick pack cars have the option of nimh/lipo , saddle pack cars dont have that choice!

[David Church]

I agree that it could be, it'd be nice if that was so. Only time will tell.


I bet there will be legal size lipo saddle packs for this year!!!:p How much you guys wana bet????? Lol..........:D

[SHY]

Spill the beans you Free Masons!!! :lol:

[SimonW]

Somebody MUST know who has submitted what up til' now

[PTRU]

Again, if you run a BRCA sanctioned regional series you can not pick and choose what rules you use and what rules you don't. If it is not a sanctioned series results do not count towards driver formulas.




The difference was the rules for brushless motors (speedos don't matter) were written very early (sizes, connector type etc) so all were built to the rules and homologation was then pretty much a certainty.

G


Please read your rule book regionals are not sanction events

[Northy]

Please read your rule book regionals are not sanction events

WRONG

I suggest you get your rule book out for a read, just to help you it's on page 32 of the 2008 book. :):):)

4. SANCTIONED EVENTS
4.1 Off-Road Sanctioned events include the
National Championship Series, Regional
Championship Series, Indoor Finals, Junior &
Veterans’ Championship, British Regional
Championship (BRC) and the Inter-Regional
F3/F4/F5 Championship. It is possible that further
specific events could be sanctioned by the
committee.

G

[Lee]

but if you removed the regional bit from that paragraph, he would be correct :lol:

[neiloliver]

I bet there will be legal size lipo saddle packs for this year!!!:p How much you guys wana bet????? Lol..........:D

Im not a betting man DC! ;)

[Spencer Mulcahy]

I think this is a loose loose situaion for everyone. What would happen if no legal saddles came out only sticks there would be uproar with people complaining about unfair advantage for the stick runners so they ban sticks for 4wd to make it fair, then the people with lipo cats will be out of pocket as well like I say loose loose situation and a big can of worms.

[matdodd]

They cant do that though can they? & if they can. cant they just change the dimensions of saddle pack lipos :eh?:and we can all just get on with racing & having a laugh!

[Spencer Mulcahy]

I think this is a loose loose situaion for everyone. What would happen if no legal saddles came out only sticks there would be uproar with people complaining about unfair advantage for the stick runners so they ban sticks for 4wd to make it fair, then the people with lipo cats will be out of pocket as well like I say loose loose situation and a big can of worms.

I realy wish I culd spell.:blush:

[Spencer Mulcahy]

They cant do that though can they? & if they can. cant they just change the dimensions of saddle pack lipos :eh?:and we can all just get on with racing & having a laugh!

I dont know if they can do it but it could happen, it would be easier to allow the saddle lipos.

[Garry Driffill]

We all knew it was going to happen enentually though all of this - There was nothing to go by when buying youre LiPo!

[3975dave]

WRONG

I suggest you get your rule book out for a read, just to help you it's on page 32 of the 2008 book. :):):)

4. SANCTIONED EVENTS
4.1 Off-Road Sanctioned events include the
National Championship Series, Regional
Championship Series, Indoor Finals, Junior &
Veterans’ Championship, British Regional
Championship (BRC) and the Inter-Regional
F3/F4/F5 Championship. It is possible that further
specific events could be sanctioned by the
committee.

G

Would it not be a good idea to relax this rule for this coming season so as not to affect the turnout at some regional series??
I for one will not be buying another pack this year and I very much doubt I am the only one.

[mutie]

Club drivers often race to a strict budget, i think they should be encouraged to take part in their respective regional championships with their club gear... it is after all the stepping stone to the national level.

Not allowing youngsters / newbies to take part in a regional championship and to taste proper competition, just because their cells are 2 or three mm too big sucks major arse. I believe there are shades of grey here. I for one do not believe there would be any significant advantage anyway.

As for the national level drivers, that is a different ball game.... For the sake of the national series i very much hope they sort a set of saddles out for the list....

[terry.sc]

They cant do that though can they? & if they can. cant they just change the dimensions of saddle pack lipos :eh?:and we can all just get on with racing & having a laugh!So the manufacturers have been told the dimensions that are required for legal cells, which happen to be the same dimensions that ROAR have been running to for a year, and the manufacturers have from the end of November when they were told the dimensions until the end of January to submit legal packs. Not much time, but I'm sure some companies will have put in the work.
Now how do you think the manufacturers who have submitted packs to Paul Worsley would feel if they are then told that the BRCA committee will be changing the rules to let bigger cells in as well at BRCA meetings.

Then what happens about any country using EFRA rules which would then need an EGM to change their rules.

Personally I hope there are saddle packs on the EB list, if there are I might finally consider lipo. Unlike most here I race and bash with 8 different saddle pack cars and have 10 packs of saddle pack nimhs. If there are EFRA legal lipo packs I would be able to use them, Trakpower cells are useless to me as they don't fit any of my cars and I cant modify them just to fit one lipo pack as I would not be able to use my nimhs in them.

[Chrislong]

So the manufacturers have been told the dimensions that are required for legal cells, which happen to be the same dimensions that ROAR have been running to for a year, and the manufacturers have from the end of November when they were told the dimensions until the end of January to submit legal packs. Not much time, but I'm sure some companies will have put in the work.
Now how do you think the manufacturers who have submitted packs to Paul Worsley would feel if they are then told that the BRCA committee will be changing the rules to let bigger cells in as well at BRCA meetings.



The line I have bolderdised, this suggests that there will be legal saddle pack lipos. If this is so, then great, and no need to relax any rules.

But if no companies put in the work & we have no saddle lipos for 2009 but then the rules are relaxed for 12months and oversize cells only accepted by the EB on the proviso that they do have cells within the size regs within 12months, then no company is offended & the racers will respect that what they're using is only due to the good will of the EB/BRCA and won't take them abroad when racing Euros or anything else.

Correct me if im wrong though.

This situation really is a wait and see one, if saddle lipos do make it on, even if just one pack - then this discussion is void. Im holding some hope. :)

[Northy]

Would it not be a good idea to relax this rule for this coming season so as not to affect the turnout at some regional series??
I for one will not be buying another pack this year and I very much doubt I am the only one.

Again, it is not possible to pick and choose which rules have to be and don't have to be followed at regionals. It is all laid out in the rule book.

G

[SHY]

So the manufacturers have been told the dimensions that are required for legal cells, which happen to be the same dimensions that ROAR have been running to for a year, and the manufacturers have from the end of November when they were told the dimensions until the end of January to submit legal packs. Not much time, but I'm sure some companies will have put in the work.
Now how do you think the manufacturers who have submitted packs to Paul Worsley would feel if they are then told that the BRCA committee will be changing the rules to let bigger cells in as well at BRCA meetings.

Then what happens about any country using EFRA rules which would then need an EGM to change their rules.

Personally I hope there are saddle packs on the EB list, if there are I might finally consider lipo. Unlike most here I race and bash with 8 different saddle pack cars and have 10 packs of saddle pack nimhs. If there are EFRA legal lipo packs I would be able to use them, Trakpower cells are useless to me as they don't fit any of my cars and I cant modify them just to fit one lipo pack as I would not be able to use my nimhs in them.

That's not entirely correct. ROAR has relaxed the rules for saddles. They simply seem to be using common sense in that matter :D IMHO the EB should have contacted ROAR even before ROAR finalized their rules, then we would have had ONE set of specs only. For the chassis manufacturers it's now a mess... The EB should have realized that they were too late as to dictating the rules and settled for the existing ROAR rules.

ROAR: (US & Canada)
Length 139mm, width 47mm, height 25,1mm
Relaxed rules for saddles
No capacity limitations

EFRA: (Europe, rules & approvals by the EB)
Lenght 139mm, width 47mm, height 23,5mm
Saddles combined length max 139mm
Max capacity 5500 mAh

Btw. does anyone know the situation in FEMCA (Far East) and FAMAR (South America)? And what will the situation be for IFMAR (Worlds)?

And... I know the BRCA touring LiPo list for 2008 is not valid anymore. But what was the size rules when that list was made?

As to coming cars/updates I think most manufacturers will either supply a NiMH or LiPo version. Or simply ship the kit with two sets of trays: One for NiMH and one for LiPo. For instance converting the B44 from NiMH to LiPo is VERY easy! A Diggity Designs conversion kit and the 4800 TrakPower saddles drop right in, no dremeling needed! You can never expect an old chassis to be "prepared for the future" :D

[RLGfx]

how to kill off a class of racing........:cry:

[DaveG28]

I'd like to know the Ifmar/far east rules too, can't see Yok/Tam doing Lipo cars until they are allowed!?

The thing I don't quite follow is if Roar have had the rules for a year but just relaxed for saddles as none fit, how come a year later there still aren't any? Or is the ROAR rule just totally different?

I did spot what looked like a hard cased saddle in LRP wrapping at the weekend, but don't know if it really was, or what size it was!

[SHY]

I'd like to know the Ifmar/far east rules too, can't see Yok/Tam doing Lipo cars until they are allowed!?

The thing I don't quite follow is if Roar have had the rules for a year but just relaxed for saddles as none fit, how come a year later there still aren't any? Or is the ROAR rule just totally different?

I did spot what looked like a hard cased saddle in LRP wrapping at the weekend, but don't know if it really was, or what size it was!

Well, who knows! We don't have inside information - so we just have to guess. My personal guess is that it was impossible or not practical to make saddles small enough to fit the size specs. Remember as opposed to NiMH you must have all bars/soldering/wires INSIDE the casing, in addition to the hard casing itself. While NiMH cells are measured without bars/wires/connectors. This is a logical breach! First of all mixing LiPos with NiMH cells is mixing apples with oranges. Furthermore - since the EB was so insistent on the rules being consistent - why is it you measure "bare" NiMH cells and complete LiPo packs???

So... in the US I guess nobody made small enough LiPo packs. I'm sure it can be done, but the burst rating and capacity would be quite small - hence not a very tempting solution anyways. I'm guessing 2000-2500 mAh'ish... Maybe still possible to use for 1:10 OR, but defo useless for touring (if they allow it later). And you'd anyway loose the fantastic long runtime you can enjoy during practise.

Good capacity and powerful hardcased LiPo were on the market - and the drivers wanted to use them - so they used common sence in the US and relaxed the rules. It doesen't take much common sense to understand that a hardcasing of two sets of cells must be bigger than one set...

I'd really wish that the organizations could start to cooperate more, we all have common interests here!

It know it may sound radical, but I don't see why we couldn't all follow IFMAR rules. EFRA could then just be a sub-organization of IFMAR. Doing what they do today, but all rules would be IFMAR rules. Furthermore I really hope the EFRA restructuring will happen, it would be great to have fully employed (paid) officials. Imagine how much good could have been done then! And no more "volunteer work on your spare time"...

[mark christopher]

Again, it is not possible to pick and choose which rules have to be and don't have to be followed at regionals. It is all laid out in the rule book.

G
it is possible to have an amemndment made to relax the rule should a EGM? be called by the members!

That's not entirely correct. ROAR has relaxed the rules for saddles. They simply seem to be using common sense in that matter :D IMHO the EB should have contacted ROAR even before ROAR finalized their rules, then we would have had ONE set of specs only. For the chassis manufacturers it's now a mess... The EB should have realized that they were too late as to dictating the rules and settled for the existing ROAR rules.

ROAR: (US & Canada)
Length 139mm, width 47mm, height 25,1mm
Relaxed rules for saddles
No capacity limitations

EFRA: (Europe, rules & approvals by the EB)
Lenght 139mm, width 47mm, height 23,5mm
Saddles combined length max 139mm
Max capacity 5500 mAh

Btw. does anyone know the situation in FEMCA (Far East) and FAMAR (South America)? And what will the situation be for IFMAR (Worlds)?

And... I know the BRCA touring LiPo list for 2008 is not valid anymore. But what was the size rules when that list was made?

As to coming cars/updates I think most manufacturers will either supply a NiMH or LiPo version. Or simply ship the kit with two sets of trays: One for NiMH and one for LiPo. For instance converting the B44 from NiMH to LiPo is VERY easy! A Diggity Designs conversion kit and the 4800 TrakPower saddles drop right in, no dremeling needed! You can never expect an old chassis to be "prepared for the future" :D
cheers for beating me again :lol:

well made reply, dont forget in the use maxamps must be the biggest usa lipo company, after a year they dont have as yet a legal pack, that must say somthing!!

[Belsten]

I'd like to know the Ifmar/far east rules too, can't see Yok/Tam doing Lipo cars until they are allowed!?

The thing I don't quite follow is if Roar have had the rules for a year but just relaxed for saddles as none fit, how come a year later there still aren't any? Or is the ROAR rule just totally different?

I did spot what looked like a hard cased saddle in LRP wrapping at the weekend, but don't know if it really was, or what size it was!

I believe Craggy was running them in his B44

[SHY]

I believe Craggy was running them in his B44

100% sure they were hardcased?

Not these by any chance?

http://www.redrc.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/lrp5100saddle.jpg

[mark christopher]

I believe Craggy was running them in his B44
you surethey wernt reedy one he had or was that bradders? carnt see neil running lrp when he is reedy/nosram

[DaveG28]

100% sure they were hardcased?

Not these by any chance?

http://www.redrc.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/lrp5100saddle.jpg

As far as I could tell the one's I saw in Craggs B44 had less blue! Looked like the LRP stickers had been added afterrwards to bare packs. It looked like hard case where I saw them from, similar looking case design to Trakpowers but black.

[DaveG28]

I'd be screwed with 200-2500, I put back in 2700 after the worksop final and it still wasn't fully charged, with a 6.5 indoors!!

[SHY]

Well, I for sure hope you're right! Would make things so much easier! :D

But again, if you are... I still cannot understand why there's no information around...

We'll just have to wait patiently in the dark for a few more weeks, with our fingers crossed...

[Kopite]

I'd be screwed with 200-2500, I put back in 2700 after the worksop final and it still wasn't fully charged, with a 6.5 indoors!!


you must be a throttle jammer!!

[Belsten]

I cant be 100% sure as I didnt see them up close. There was deffo a fair amount of blue on them. Pretty sure it was bradders running the reedys as they have black shrink dont they ?
Craggys certainly didnt have those big LRP stickers pictured

[Chequered Flag Racing]

As Terry.sc has said, the BRCA have made an error, let's hope they learn from it.

They could restore some confidence in themselve's by granting a Years grace for those TrakPowers and other LiPo that are just over size (in mm not capacity). By 2010 legal size should be available.

12th Section allowed 2007 cells to be run @ 2008 Nationals to keep the numbers up. See here (http://www.rcracechat.com/vb/showpost.php?p=343060&postcount=1)

If all goes t*ts up and they don't we can still use TrakPower's etc as a practice pack;)

[Adam Skelding]

you must be a throttle jammer!!

Indeed. I only used 1800 max all day from TP3200's with a 5.5 in.

I've only once used more than 2000 and that was in a 6 minute practice

[Cockerill]

Indeed. I only used 1800 max all day from TP3200's with a 5.5 in.

I've only once used more than 2000 and that was in a 6 minute practice

I don't think I've ever used less than 2000, and that includes when I break it before the run :lol:

[mark christopher]

I don't think I've ever used less than 2000, and that includes when I break it before the run :lol:

but tom your allways on maximum attack!:lol:

[super__dan]

Tom, you're an animal, I didn't check this weekend but at previous rounds I was using 1200 - 1400mah!

[Cockerill]

The only time I checked I used 2600 out of a 3600 in 4wd with a 6.5 :lol:

[ianjoyner]

Does anyone know how the TrakPower and Orion stick packs are with respect to this rule?

"The two halves of the case must be factory sealed in a way that any
attempt to open the case will destroy the case."

As I understood both of their cases can be fairly easily opened.

[Mike Hudson]

they would have to be factory glued or sealed another way which neither of them have done as far as im aware :confused:

[Chequered Flag Racing]

they would have to be factory glued or sealed another way which neither of them have done as far as im aware :confused:

Does anyone know how the TrakPower and Orion stick packs are with respect to this rule?

"The two halves of the case must be factory sealed in a way that any
attempt to open the case will destroy the case."

As I understood both of their cases can be fairly easily opened.

Quick Fix
Could be sealed with nail varnish over sticker with suitable wording placed on both ends of case etc just like the do for tyres, chassis etc @ controlled events. Easliy checked at scrutineering and easy to monitor if the scrucineers are on the ball.

[SHY]

Well, the TrakPowers ideally should have been glued together, then shrinkwrapped (or skip the shrinkwrap). As long as you keep the shrinkwrap on they should be safe enough. I still think they should start glueing the halves together in the future though.

I'm not sure how they handhold this in the US, maybe they demand that the shrinkwrap is not removed. And there's the "ROAR approved" sticker, I don't recall right now - is it outside or inside the shrinkwrap? (I think it's on the outside)

I managed to dump with new & matched 4600 cells this summer... with 5 cells and 5,5 in 4WD on the wet clay track (=Nutella) in Vaasa, Finland. Barely made it with 6 cells :lol:

[DaveG28]

you must be a throttle jammer!!

I know, I had my car dump once or twice in the summer using Orion 4200 minh! I keep sh*****g myself when people suggest longer races now we have good capacity batteries!

I'm not an animal like Tom though, loved his madness at Broxtowe, and unlike Tom I throttle jam without being good enough to go faster!!

[Chequered Flag Racing]

And there's the "ROAR approved" sticker, I don't recall right now - is it outside or inside the shrinkwrap? (I think it's on the outside)



Mine's on the inside under heatshrink but not across the join, just checked

[SHY]

We're running 7 minute heats in Norway from the start of the outdoor season! Most likely we'll increase this even more in the years to come!

Keep in mind that LiPo got approx. 40% longer effective runtimes than NiMH (with equal stated capacity). I haven't checked but going flat out with a B44 with 5,5 and 4800 LiPos it must be somewhere between 10 and 15 minutes runtime...

You guys can't do this simply cause you're overpopulated! ;)

And we allow ROAR and EFRA approved LiPos... it's gonna be great!!! :D

[terry.sc]

ROAR: (US & Canada)
Length 139mm, width 47mm, height 25,1mm
Relaxed rules for saddles
No capacity limitations

EFRA: (Europe, rules & approvals by the EB)
Lenght 139mm, width 47mm, height 23,5mm
Saddles combined length max 139mm
Max capacity 5500 mAh

Btw. does anyone know the situation in FEMCA (Far East) and FAMAR (South America)? And what will the situation be for IFMAR (Worlds)?


You'll love this- ROAR lipo battery rules for 2009.
The case shall consist of two (2) halves with each half being constructed from a single mold that is not easily pliable and retains it shape without any exterior or interior support. Both the top and bottom sections of the case must be secured together by glue, double-sided tape or heat seal with a label across the seam stating "ROAR Approved" in such a manner that separation of the case to remove or replace the cells will destroy the case and/or label and render it unusable in competition. The case must be installed by the manufacturer or Value added manufacturer no end User installed cases are acceptable. The case will protect the cells from damage on all sides and will completely cover all cells having only openings for wire connections. Any modification to the factory approved hard case will make the pack ineligible for participation in ROAR events. Approved batteries will be required to have a label stating "ROAR Approved" across the seam. ROAR will have a grandfather clause until Jan 2009 for all approved cells at competition on the Label rule.So any pack which does not have a ROAR Approved label over the case join is rendered illegal for use in ROAR events.

8.3.2.3 Lipo case dimensions:
8.3.2.3.1 The maximum 2s brick/stick style case size shall be as follows: Length: 139mm max Width: 47mm max Height: 25.1mm max
8.3.2.3.2 The maximum 2s saddle case dimensions shall be as follows: Length: 71mm max Width: 48mm max Height: 32mm max
8.3.2.3.3 The maximum 4s brick/stick style case shall be as follows: Length: 160 mm Width: 52mm Height: 52mm
Looks like ROAR have fixed the "allow oversize packs" dispensation from last year, even though last years packs which were ROAR legal are no longer legal if they don't have the right sticker on the side of the case.:eh?:

AFAIK FEMCA doesn't allow lipos, I know that Tamiya have missed lipos entirely and released a LiFe pack last year. Lipos aren't yet legal for IFMAR meetings either, usually new rules are created by national organisations, then after some time they work their way up to IFMAR. Lipos are unlikely to be legal for the next 1/10th worlds as IFMAR rules state batteries must be submitted for IFMAR approval 8 months before the event.

[Richard Lowe]

Why don't we all just run illegal cells at this years nationals, they can't DQ everyone :p

The dimension rules should be relaxed a little IMO, but just for the coming season, given the uproar this rule seems to have caused a lot of people are upset. The only two reasons that seem to have been given for the rule have based their argument on safety and car fitment. I can't see how either of these are an issue given the number of people already running 'illegal' cells over the winter with no issues.

With a lot of cars these days they can be made to fit pretty easily by just bolting things on (such as the Diggity Designs kit for the BJ4/B44), how is this any different to fitting things like different springs or shock oil?

How about lower end cars that might come with a plastic motor mount, where you need to fit a metal one that doesn't melt to run quicker motors - should we ban anything faster than say a 10.5? It's no secret that in the past (this is not a dig at you guys Paul/Chazz, the new moulds are really nice :) ) you had to be pretty handy with a dremel to run an X-Factory car, why was that car allowed in any way shape or form?!

Similar kind of sillyness has come from the BRCA in the past, the main one I can think of was the banning of cut and shut front tyres for tiverton because some people couldn't do it reliably. This might sound a bit harsh but go and figure it out, thats all part of racing! Learning new skills is part of the fun, I can't see how cars these days can be much more 'plug and play' than they already are; it's getting a bit dull.

That un-named BRCA official really doesn't want us running LiPo does he/she... :eh?:

[terry.sc]

My personal guess is that it was impossible or not practical to make saddles small enough to fit the size specs.Lipo cells are made up of flat layers, usually folded over to fit in whatever case or covering is needed. Making a pack to fit the EFRA smaller dimensions is technically simple, you just make the sheets smaller to start with. The problem is of course that the smaller surface area reduces the capacity, and you would have to change production to make slightly smaller cells specifically for saddle packs which have a relatively limited demand, instead of using the same cells as in the more popular stick packs.

It know it may sound radical, but I don't see why we couldn't all follow IFMAR rules. EFRA could then just be a sub-organization of IFMAR. Doing what they do today, but all rules would be IFMAR rules.The problem with that is that nothing would ever change as all the organisations have to agree to changes.
As an example look at 1/12th scale. We all raced 6 cell in them until as they were getting too fast the BRCA voted in a change to 4 cell. It was successful in the UK, so was then adopted by EFRA and eventually IFMAR. On the other hand at the 2006 worlds an IFMAR meeting tried to change the rules to say that 1/12th worlds should be run on carpet only, like the majority of the world does. Thanks to ROAR disagreeing this change this years worlds was on the TC tarmac track, got low attendance, and the first two cars were the only ones who had tarmac specific tyres.

[terry.sc]

But again, if you are... I still cannot understand why there's no information around...As the battery manufacturers have until the end of January to submit lipo packs we won't be hearing what has and hasn't been approved until then.

[SHY]

LOL! :lol: What a mess...

Doesen't bother us much though, we'll be flexible. As long as we can identify it from the ROAR or EFRA list. And it's securely held together we'll let people race with it. After all, this is basically in place for safety reasons. We go by K.I.S.S. ideology - Keep It Simple Stupid! :D

We really need more professional organizations governing RC. And it'd better be global! I really, really hope the reorganization of EFRA will happen!!!

RC is so professional now that we really do need more professional organizations. As to EFRA there's more than enough funds available for it to hire people full time. We can then also expect more from them. Not to mention criticize without fearing that people that do volunteer work get fed up and quit.

I totally see your point Terry, but I believe this is down to all "officials" doing this on their spare time. And that's far from the same as someone being hired to do this as a full time job. For instance: remember what the IFMAR web page used to look like? A first attemt at a personal home page... we need to step up the game!

I'd love to see something like this: Only IFMAR - with one office in US, South America, Asia, Europe, Australia. All countries in the world could be members. Voting could be done via traditional AGMs, but also via electronic voting systems.

I know Dallas for one has worked his ass off for EFRA (and now also IFMAR), and mostly he's been rewarded with his wife constantly threatening to leave him... hire the bloke!

Does anyone have knowledge as to how this is being done in full scale racing? FIA etc?

[SHY]

As the battery manufacturers have until the end of January to submit lipo packs we won't be hearing what has and hasn't been approved until then.

If I was a manufacturer and had managed to make one I'd sure as hell leak some info... think about the hype and sales potential! :drool:

[Richard Lowe]

If I was a manufacturer and had managed to make one I'd sure as hell leak some info... think about the hype and sales potential! :drool:
But what if you were'nt able to deliver on time for whatever reason, you'd have people relying on you to release a product and then rushing round like crazy at the last minute to sort an alternative.

In my truck in Florida I ran a LiPo pack I'd made myself, it's way too long and too high. It didn't explode or injure anyone, and fits in the T4 with some longer battery strap screws, no other mods needed - so whats the issue?

[DaveG28]

Have heard back from Paul, first list currently planned around the end of January, sounds like he's certainly working hard on it all!

I'm hopeful a saddle pack or 2 will be on there as well!

[Chrislong]

In my truck in Florida I ran a LiPo pack I'd made myself, it's way too long and too high. It didn't explode, injure anyone, and fits in the T4 with some longer battery strap screws, no other mods needed - so whats the issue?

OMG :o I want to see this pack. What safety clothing must I wear to share the same postcode as this pack? ;)

[Belsten]

Does the LRP stick fit the dimensions ?

[Richard Lowe]

OMG :o I want to see this pack. What safety clothing must I wear to share the same postcode as this pack? ;)
None thats my point :)

It isn't even hard cased, although the monster heatshrink I used is so thick it might as well be :p

[SHY]

None thats my point :)

It isn't even hard cased, although the monster heatshrink I used is so thick it might as well be :p

Try and short it and you'll get the picture fairly quickly... :lol:

[DaveG28]

Deleted

[Chequered Flag Racing]

deleted at a worried man's request :lol:

[SHY]

removed on request

That's very good news!!! :thumbsup:

What's the mAh rating for those packs?

[DaveG28]

:o Last time I quoted Paul from a private email he was non to happy :woot:

Expect to here from him soon :lol:, and I guess I'll get one to for starting the thread;)



Oops, was wondering, that's why so took a while to post it and chose a none specific bit! I mean, I have no special access so thought this was better than potentially many more emailing!

Will edit by post, can youdo the same to yours so the quotes removed??

[3975dave]

Again, it is not possible to pick and choose which rules have to be and don't have to be followed at regionals. It is all laid out in the rule book.

G

I can see how a rule like that is ok for nationals where you are oversubscibed but how can it be good for regionals. I for one have never been to an oversubscribed regional. To turn people away is madness and can only harm the sport at that level.

[DaveG28]

That's very good news!!! :thumbsup:

What's the mAh rating for those packs?


Shy, can you please remove your quote too?

I didn't have any specific info and got the impression that was deliberate, so haven't followed up!

[Chequered Flag Racing]

deleted at a worried man's request :lol:


Now your for it. I bet he's read it already :lol: :p

I quoted the whole lot so you may get away without the wrath of the BRCA coming down on you :woot: :o

Isn't everthing out in cybrespace in google cahce anyway?

Google takes a snapshot of each page it examines and caches (stores) that version as a back-up.

[DaveG28]

Well, best can do now is try to remove the quotes!

Really didn't think it would be a problem, as my info was quite vague!

Although I notice you haven't removed the quote!

[Chequered Flag Racing]

Well, best can do now is try to remove the quotes!

Although I notice you haven't removed the quote!

You can wipe the sweat of your brow and stop looking over your shoulder now :lol: :p

[mark christopher]

Lipo cells are made up of flat layers, usually folded over to fit in whatever case or covering is needed. Making a pack to fit the EFRA smaller dimensions is technically simple, you just make the sheets smaller to start with. The problem is of course that the smaller surface area reduces the capacity, and you would have to change production to make slightly smaller cells specifically for saddle packs which have a relatively limited demand, instead of using the same cells as in the more popular stick packs.

The problem with that is that nothing would ever change as all the organisations have to agree to changes.
As an example look at 1/12th scale. We all raced 6 cell in them until as they were getting too fast the BRCA voted in a change to 4 cell. It was successful in the UK, so was then adopted by EFRA and eventually IFMAR. On the other hand at the 2006 worlds an IFMAR meeting tried to change the rules to say that 1/12th worlds should be run on carpet only, like the majority of the world does. Thanks to ROAR disagreeing this change this years worlds was on the TC tarmac track, got low attendance, and the first two cars were the only ones who had tarmac specific tyres.

cheaper ones maybe definatly not the good competition packs

[greasy mark]

beat me to it mark lol,as mark said the beter quality cells arnt folded they are sperate cells conected by welded tags .much like the make up of a sub c stick pack ,

[terry.sc]

beat me to it mark lol,as mark said the beter quality cells arnt folded they are sperate cells conected by welded tags .much like the make up of a sub c stick pack ,How the plates are joined to create an individual cell is irrelevant, whether folded, soldered, electrowelded, whatever, doesn't make any difference to the physical size of the cell.
The cell consists of an anode and cathode separated by a catholyte, electrolyte and anolyte layer, making up a bipolar plate, which is flat. The overall length and width of the cell is controlled by how big these plates are cut to, the height by how many layers are stacked on top of each other (either by joining individual plates or folding one plate over) so to make a pack small enough to fit in the rules you just cut them slightly smaller and use less plates. The downside is the smaller surface area means you have less capacity in the cell.



And I've heard a rumour that some manufacturers have managed to make cells small enough to fit the rules.;)

[greasy mark]

i understand that ,the point i was trying to make is that 90% of the lipo cells ie each plate are made to a size most of the lipos we have for racing have been developed using existing size plates from planes/helis or any thing else that uses them so just making each plate smaller is posible but a massive investment and re tooling for the manufatures the wraping would nead to re tooled for the jigs for the welding,basicly every part of the process from start to finish would nead to be changed.i dont see why the eb cant relax the rule for a year .

[mark christopher]

i understand that ,the point i was trying to make is that 90% of the lipo cells ie each plate are made to a size most of the lipos we have for racing have been developed using existing size plates from planes/helis or any thing else that uses them so just making each plate smaller is posible but a massive investment and re tooling for the manufatures the wraping would nead to re tooled for the jigs for the welding,basicly every part of the process from start to finish would nead to be changed.i dont see why the eb cant relax the rule for a year .
your bang on mark!!

[greasy mark]

guys n galls there has been over 4000 veiws of this post and most of the posts on this thread are from people that dont seam to agree with the ruel,why dont we the brca members put up an online petiton and then submit it to them.??? i personaly wont be able to do as many of the reigonals as i would like what with 1/8th buggy and truggy nats but would have done the ones i could using my b44 with trakpower lipos .i for one will not now be attending any if i canot use my lipos

[MattW]

Why don't you just wait and see what happens - surely that's the easy option! When a list is released, have a look and see what's on it. There are many more companies than you could realise, and you couldn't possibly know what they might or might not do.

[damo666]

Surely as we are the BRCA an EGM can be called if enough members call for one. I also cannot believe that no one from the BRCA is responding to the comments raised.

[bert digler]

Surely as we are the BRCA an EGM can be called if enough members call for one. I also cannot believe that no one from the BRCA is responding to the comments raised.

:lol:

[Irri Tant]

There are many more companies than you could realise, and you couldn't possibly know what they might or might not do.

Speed Passion LiPo :drool:

could these metals (http://cuberacing.net/) be on the 2009 metals list also ?

[damo666]

:lol:

:p:p:p nugget

[SHY]

Now, now... everybody just calm down and be patient!

I'm convinced you'll fully enjoy the new 1500 mAh LiPo saddles! :p

Some say the Stig ate a test pack in PWs kitchen, without being injured as well...

[SlowOne]

I haven't read all of the posts on here, but it seems that the saddle pack dimensions 'thing' is still going. If it is...

This must rate as a huge waste of space. Whinge, moan, rant, speculate, etc., etc... Has it occurred to anyone to ask whether or not there has been a simple mistake? Perhaps the following logic went through Paul's head, as it has through mine...

Limiting the size of the box will (for the time being at least) limit the capacity of the cells, which in turn limits the cost. However, the possibility to make two boxes (saddles) larger than one box (stick) is higher, since there is more room in a saddle pack car than a stick car. So, it would seem simple to make a Rule that says the two can't be greater than one. And then, one simply forgets that one now has four ends, not two.

So, why hasn't anyone sent a polite e-mail to their Section Secretary and the EB Secretary, pointing out this issue, and asking for an urgent request from the 10th Off-Road Section, to the EB, to get this Rule changed before any cells are approved?

Why is it so difficult to do that, and so easy to type rubbish and rants and insults on here? Nothing gets changed by typing on a forum, but there's every chance it will by typing to a BRCA Official. You elect them, use them!

This is what I did when the issue of the 'thin' LRP endbells came up, and I got an answer within a week - favourable as it happens. Come on guys, give these BRCA volunteers a break - ask for their reasons instead of dissing them on a public forum. Without them there'd be no racing, so the least you can do is think before you type, and try to see things from their point of view too.

I'll bet that if this was pointed out, the Rule would be changed.

[Jonathan]

Ok, I shouldnt speculate, but Ive got to give some hope to myself and the many other frustrated saddle packers.

These bad boys have gotta be on the list

Voltage: 7.4v 2S
Capacity: 4200mah
Discharge Rate: 30C+
DIMENSION: 69x46x23mm for each
Weight: 257g
Wire: 12AWG
Balance Change Plug: XH2.5 and Tamiya Plug
Packing: with Hard Casing

http://rcmarket.com.hk/images/IP-TP2S4200V1.jpg

[Irri Tant]

These bad boys have gotta be on the list



Only if they have been submitted for testing then they could still fall foul of the EB :lol::p

Did you submit them or know the company that did?

[DaveG28]

Ok, I shouldnt speculate, but Ive got to give some hope to myself and the many other frustrated saddle packers.

These bad boys have gotta be on the list

Voltage: 7.4v 2S
Capacity: 4200mah
Discharge Rate: 30C+
DIMENSION: 69x46x23mm for each
Weight: 257g
Wire: 12AWG
Balance Change Plug: XH2.5 and Tamiya Plug
Packing: with Hard Casing

http://rcmarket.com.hk/images/IP-TP2S4200V1.jpg


By the way, is there a rule about being commercially available within the uk for batteries?

[Jonathan]

Looks good, someone has to submit them though!

By the way, is there a rule about being commercially available within the uk for batteries?

Hmm, good point dave, just noticed that there is no IP stick pack on the TC list. The Demon pack looks a bit like a IP pack ?

I knew I shouldnt speculate.

At least it shows that someone has made a pack within dimensions, and not a bad spec at that. There is hope.

[ashleyb4]

They look cool.

A

[Irri Tant]

Looks good, someone has to submit them though!



DIDN'T JUST I JUST SAY THAT IN AN EARLIER POST:mad: WHY REPEAT WHAT HAS ALREADY BEEN SAID?????? EVEN :mad:'rrrrrr



Voltage: 7.4v 2S
Capacity: 4200mah
Discharge Rate: 30C+
DIMENSION: 69x46x23mm for each
Weight: 257g
Wire: 12AWG
Balance Change Plug: XH2.5 and Tamiya Plug
Packing: with Hard Casing



The BRCA measurements will be in UK imperial metric:p

[DaveG28]

DIDN'T JUST I JUST SAY THAT IN AN EARLIER POST:mad: WHY REPEAT WHAT HAS ALREADY BEEN SAID?????? EVEN :mad:'rrrrrr

Or maybe you should chill out, you posted while I was writing mine, so I wouldn't know you'd said it would I!??:D

Only just came back and saw the double post.

Maybe change your name to irritable rather than irri tant old boy...

[DCM]

the UK distributor must submit the pack, then, once proven that a certain amount have been ordered/supplied, if the cell passes homologation, it will go on the list.

Ask nice, EB Sec... OR chairman.... :woot:

[SHY]

4200 is more than enough! GREAT news!!! :thumbsup:

[terry.sc]

just making each plate smaller is posible but a massive investment and re tooling for the manufatures the wraping would nead to re tooled for the jigs for the welding,basicly every part of the process from start to finish would nead to be changed.your bang on mark!!So the pair of you are agreeing with what I've been saying, that smaller packs can be made by manufacturers who are prepared to make the cells small enough. :D

Time and again there have been negative comments stating that cells either can't be made that small so there won't be any packs, or they would have too small a capacity. The pack of IP 4200 lipos, assuming it is genuine, show that it is possible to have packs that fit within the rules with enough capacity, and with a 30C discharge rate.:thumbsup:
Hopefully this should reassure everyone that packs will be available and will be on the EB list, whether it's these IP cells, rebranded versions of them or other manufacturers packs.

[terry.sc]

Surely as we are the BRCA an EGM can be called if enough members call for one. I also cannot believe that no one from the BRCA is responding to the comments raised.If you check your BRCA handbook it states the requirements to organise an EGM. It requires an application from 10% of the membership, then 10% of the total membership to attend the EGM.
So basically it's virtually impossible.

Regarding the BRCA responding, I don't see anything they have to respond to. All we have had is speculation that there will be no packs available, or that packs bought before the rules were formulated aren't legal.

[terry.sc]

So, why hasn't anyone sent a polite e-mail to their Section Secretary and the EB Secretary, pointing out this issue, and asking for an urgent request from the 10th Off-Road Section, to the EB, to get this Rule changed before any cells are approved?

Why is it so difficult to do that, and so easy to type rubbish and rants and insults on here? Nothing gets changed by typing on a forum, but there's every chance it will by typing to a BRCA Official. You elect them, use them!
:thumbsup: You know it's easier to rant on a board than do something about the problem.

There is the fact though that if someone did contact the section and EB committee and got the rule changed by the BRCA or a dispensation for oversize cells to be allowed, then either the BRCA would be running to different rules to the rest of EFRA, or EFRA would have to call an EGM to change their rules.

[Chequered Flag Racing]

The pack of IP 4200 lipos, assuming it is genuine, show that it is possible to have packs that fit within the rules with enough capacity, and with a 30C discharge rate.:thumbsup:


discharge rate maybe more then 30c, there made by intellect (http://rcmarket.com.hk/product_info.php?products_id=5237) :woot:, remember their NiMH 42's:lol:

[DaveG28]

I'm sure a lot of you will be happy to hear I'll try and make this my final post on this thread!

I'm in favour of threads like this where people feel strongly as long as it stays respecting of everyones view. I think they help as more of us are probably now aware lipo saddles CAN be produced to the specs than before, all good in my view! I'm sure PW and everyone involved is doing their best, and I know they put a lot of time and effort into this for us, which we're hopefully all appreciative of. I'm also sure they are more knowledgable than me on these and other topics. That doesn't mean I can't respectably disagree on some of these things though, and hopefully they don't mind that either as long as it stays civilized!?

I want more than 3200mah anyway so I now don't have a vested interest in the TP issue as I'll almost certainly be changing cells when the list is produced! So hopefully this will be seen as just an honest opinion:

This is a hobby, one which needs as many people as possible, and as a hobby my own view is rules should be as free as possible as long as there is no performance advantage. Rules for sizes/dimensions I can also see a point so cells are produced to directly fit cars. HOWEVER, where many people already own a pack (tp saddle) and therefore already gave cars changed to fit them, and they have no advantage over other packs (3200 saddle), I really don't see why they shouldn't be given dispensation to run. In the case of the higher spec TP saddle, I think only if other saddles of the same or greater mah make it on should they be allowed as they could give an advantage! That's my 2 pence worth.

So I'm fine with Mark carrying on trying to get these packs in, and will support that, regardless if whether he's doing it for his sponsors or not!!

[Col]

You would almost get the impression that the rules are set as they are because the BRCA or certain people within it don't want to run lipo...

Feel free to coment either way!

[Doomanic]

As only two manufacturers/distributors have submitted packs for approval it would seem that they aren't too bothered either. :thumbdown:

[bert digler]

As only two manufacturers/distributors have submitted packs for approval it would seem that they aren't too bothered either. :thumbdown:

WHO:wub

[mark christopher]

I haven't read all of the posts on here, but it seems that the saddle pack dimensions 'thing' is still going. If it is...

This must rate as a huge waste of space. Whinge, moan, rant, speculate, etc., etc... Has it occurred to anyone to ask whether or not there has been a simple mistake? Perhaps the following logic went through Paul's head, as it has through mine...

Limiting the size of the box will (for the time being at least) limit the capacity of the cells, which in turn limits the cost. However, the possibility to make two boxes (saddles) larger than one box (stick) is higher, since there is more room in a saddle pack car than a stick car. So, it would seem simple to make a Rule that says the two can't be greater than one. And then, one simply forgets that one now has four ends, not two.

So, why hasn't anyone sent a polite e-mail to their Section Secretary and the EB Secretary, pointing out this issue, and asking for an urgent request from the 10th Off-Road Section, to the EB, to get this Rule changed before any cells are approved?

Why is it so difficult to do that, and so easy to type rubbish and rants and insults on here? Nothing gets changed by typing on a forum, but there's every chance it will by typing to a BRCA Official. You elect them, use them!

This is what I did when the issue of the 'thin' LRP endbells came up, and I got an answer within a week - favourable as it happens. Come on guys, give these BRCA volunteers a break - ask for their reasons instead of dissing them on a public forum. Without them there'd be no racing, so the least you can do is think before you type, and try to see things from their point of view too.

I'll bet that if this was pointed out, the Rule would be changed.
i know one manufacture has done so
So the pair of you are agreeing with what I've been saying, that smaller packs can be made by manufacturers who are prepared to make the cells small enough. :D

.
yup if the end user done mind paying for them


So I'm fine with Mark carrying on trying to get these packs in, and will support that, regardless if whether he's doing it for his sponsors or not!!
if you mean me, its not my crusade or my thread, im just a fustrated buggy racer!

[JensK]

Have you guys cheked out the spec on this item??


Intellect 7.4V 4200mAh 30C Saddle Pack Hardcase
[INT-TP2S4200V1]$65.00USDhttp://rc-mushroom.com/images/pixel_trans.gifhttp://rc-mushroom.com/images/S4/INT-TP2S4200V1.GIF
Click to enlarge (http://rc-mushroom.com/images/INT-TP2S4200V1-enlarge.jpg)Specifications:

Weight: 8.21oz, or 233grams.

Height: 23mm

Legnth: 63mm

Width: 46mm


And the rules are like this, correct?...

Length: 139.0mm.
Width: 47.0mm. (The max. width includes any side exit wires).
Height: 23.5mm. (In addition, chassis location protrusions are allowed)
Saddle-Pack cells are allowed, and must comply with the above width and height
dimensions. Saddle-Pack cells must have a combined length dimension of 139.0mm
max when placed end to end.'

Then this packs should be legal?

[SHY]

If they are sent to the EB for approval, yes. If not they're not legal even if they are within the size rules...

[JensK]

Ok...now i see a couple of pages earlier, that i was a little late with the BIG news.....
My bad...

[cmgreen]

What about these?

http://www.apexmodels.com/gbu0-prodshow/LRP79865.html

Are these BRCA legal?

[Mike Hudson]

if you read the first few pages, no lipo cells are legal yet! The brca EB battery nimh/lipo list comes out in late february which shows which lipos and nimh cells are legal for the 2009 brca events

[Mike Hudson]

that lrp saddle pack will most certainly not be made legal because its only shrink wrapped and not hard cased as stated in the brca rules and regs of 09

[cmgreen]

Was just throwing somthing into the fire, but thanks MIKE

[GRIFF55]

so i'm guessing it would be a good bet to hold out on buying lipo's till the end of february then? Entering the nationals later because of not knowing what/if lipo saddles will be legal. So if an f5 wants any chance of getting in thay should enter and hope any lipo they have are made legal??(depandant on sizes they own)
Just my thoughts

[Mike Hudson]

it's most unfortunate for many but yes it may be the only option, i've sent my entry into the fog not knowing what saddles will be available, there are a couple of manufacturers that should have them legalised ;) for people that have already bought lipo saddles they knew the chances were that they might or might not be made legal.

[JCJC]

so i'm guessing it would be a good bet to hold out on buying lipo's till the end of february then? Entering the nationals later because of not knowing what/if lipo saddles will be legal. So if an f5 wants any chance of getting in thay should enter and hope any lipo they have are made legal??(depandant on sizes they own)
Just my thoughts

or run cells like last year, I would not buy lipo's until the list is confirmed, bet there will be a rush to the shops that week, credit crunch or not ! or will the shops have em ? do they find out when we do ?

[Gaz_Stanton]

so i'm guessing it would be a good bet to hold out on buying lipo's till the end of february then? Entering the nationals later because of not knowing what/if lipo saddles will be legal. So if an f5 wants any chance of getting in thay should enter and hope any lipo they have are made legal??(depandant on sizes they own)
Just my thoughts

Remember this year there isn't a national until the 2nd week in May so it's not as bad as it sounds. People still have 2 and a bit months from the list being made public to the first round of the championship.

[GRIFF55]

I realise that the first nat is later gaz, but my thinking was from when i started back being an f5 it was very hard to gain entry to the meetings.
All i am wnodering is that if you are an F5 and leave entry till the list is released, what are the odds of getting in?:D
Mine will be in the post asap anyhow;)

[terry.sc]

So if an f5 wants any chance of getting in thay should enter and hope any lipo they have are made legal??If you are talking about saddle packs you can be guaranteed that cells from last year will be illegal for 2009 as they are either too big or not in a sealed hard case. There's no guarantee that any current stick pack will be on the list either.

Surely if an F5 wants to run in the nationals they should get their entry in as soon as possible, then buy whatever batteries are needed when the list is produced. Presuming you are planning on doing the series (better chance of getting in than just your local race) then buying a new pack or two of lipos won't be your greatest expense.

[ashleyb4]

Ive heard about a few new saddle pack lipo's being developed now maybe the future is bring after all.

A

[Chrislong]

Future is bring, future is banana. :lol:

The cost of Lipo is not significant, my single concern is that there will be enough packs for all the racers who'll all be ordering them as soon as they know what they can order.

[losixxx]

there was enough new nimh's last year when the new cell list came out so i can't really see it being a problem this year..

[jcb]

there was enough new nimh's last year when the new cell list came out so i can't really see it being a problem this year..


There wasn't when I was trying to get mine :mad:

[losixxx]

There wasn't when I was trying to get mine :mad:

obviously didnt look hard enough, plenty around before the national's started

[matdodd]

There wasn't when I was trying to get mine :mad:


or mine! Thanks JC for the loan ;)

[jcb]

obviously didnt look hard enough, plenty around before the national's started


You cheeky sod :mad:

I tried most of the bigger / well known shops in the UK and none could supply me with 6 packs of cells all of the same make and specification that fitted within the BRCA rules for the 2008 Nationals.

In the end I went direct to Team Almighty who I have to say did do a great job, but it did cut it fine as I got them one week before the first national!!!!

[James]

There wasn't when I was trying to get mine :mad:

or mine! Thanks JC for the loan ;)

Yeah, i had a real hard job sourcing cells too - only ones i could find were on ebay in the end and very expensive :cry:

[losixxx]

You cheeky sod :mad:

!!!!



UP YOUR'S:p

horizon had stock before the national series' started so any shop with an account could have supplied you with cell's...

[James]

Im sponsored by LRP and Horizon were the distributors at the time, they couldn't supply me with mammas/cobras or shos..Neither could they with my local shops. spoke to spash several times about it..

[jcb]

UP YOUR'S:p

horizon had stock before the national series' started so any shop with an account could have supplied you with cell's...


They may well have had stock but I couldn't get hold of any of it and I would think that all the shops I contacted would have a trade account with Horizon.

Sounds like some need to learn the valuable asset of COMMUNICATION

[Belsten]

Anyone seen this ?

http://www.apexmodels.com/gbu0-prodshow/LRP79865.html

Wonder what the (BRCA) means ?

[Adam Skelding]

Anyone seen this ?

http://www.apexmodels.com/gbu0-prodshow/LRP79865.html

Wonder what the (BRCA) means ?

(Not) (BRCA) approved probably.:cry: Delete as necessary.
That part number is the soft cased LiPo, so it won't be any good for BRCA approval anyway.

[Belsten]

Its a little misleading I feel for those that arent aware that the list isnt out yet

[DaveG28]

Hmm, a few people suddenly selling off loads of nimh in the sale section.

Taking a few weeks off without racing, or insider info...?

[Kopite]

I'm selling them cos i'd rather just not race than run NiMh cells again. If LiPo stick are only available, i'll just race 2wd only.

Afraid i have no insider info :o

[Irri Tant]

insider info...?

insider info :p

its amazing what you can find out if ask the right questions ;)

[DaveG28]

insider info :p

its amazing what you can find out if ask the right questions ;)

And the right people!!

I'm just guessing some drivers will be finding out from shops/manufacturers what's been submitted etc! Not saying it's underhand or "tricksy" though!

At the moment we don't know what stick packs are legal either, not just saddle!

[samd]

Anyone want to spill the beans....?

[bigred5765]

anyone seen these, sounds promising,clicky (http://67.199.85.166/main/productdetails.php?text=712)
and within dimensions to clicky (http://aedownloads.com/press/in_012209_reedy.pdf)

[ben]

$165 a pack though carl!!! :cry:

[phil c]

i ordered a trakpower lipo saddle pack from apex last week , rang them today to find out when it was coming, and they said that trakpower are working on brca legal saddle packs, and are not sending any more out until they are legal

[DaveG28]

$165 a pack though carl!!! :cry:

Good point Ben, I REALLY haven't been budgeting for over £100 per battery!! Even though I'd only be after 2, not 4 like in previous years!

[Doomanic]

Price limit is £85...

[mark christopher]

anyone seen these, sounds promising,clicky (http://67.199.85.166/main/productdetails.php?text=712)
and within dimensions to clicky (http://aedownloads.com/press/in_012209_reedy.pdf)
over price limit though

[stegger]

That price ( $164.99 MSRP ) will be a lot lower in the shops in the states so i bet they will be a few pennies under the £85 limit when they come out over here ;)

[bigred5765]

dont be silly you no they cant sell them in the uk unless there under the brca limit,buy 1p lol