Norwegian federation closes down all electric races and training

[damo666]

I'd rather try to put out a fire than pull bits of shrapnel from my eyes

[bondy]

Originally Posted by Northy

Even if some kid has them on charge in the garage, or on his bedroom floor?

G

Seem to remember the ones at worksop setting fire to some tissue near by, Which then someone decided to put on the floor of the hall .

I had to pick that up and run outside !!!!! Good job smelly smoke users have a put out bin outside !!!!

Borrowed a friends ib's for the rug racers on sunday and was a bit worried about em going up more than my lipo's

[Ole C]

Hi guys

There seems to be some misunderstanding about what has happened in Norway the last few days.

The blown up battery pack picured at redrc.net is mine.
One more pack exploded during the raceweekend, and we measured more than 130degrees C on one more pack(Integy I think).

On monday I sent a mail to the Norwegian federation expressing my concerns for the safety of the drivers.
At that very weekend EFRA had a meeting where Team Orion and LRP had expressed concernes regarding the IB4200 cells.
This in total lead to the decision of stopping all races sanctioned by the national federation.

The Federation has NOT banned club level activity, but have advised the clubs to temporarily stop their activities until investigations have been conducted to improve the safety of the drivers.

It is my understanding that most clubs here will allow regular activity but without IB4200 cells, and of course beeing more focused on not overcharging any other batteries.

I normally charge my batteries at 5A with 3mV deltapeak, and 43 degrees C tempcut for safety. I use a Team Orion Advantage charger.
When my pack exploded I had borrowed a charger (same charger) since my charger was busy with disharging the pack I raced with last to see how much was left.

I later discovered that this charger was set at 6A charge with 6mV deltapeak, still 43 degrees C cutoff. So this was obviously neglect on my part, which I do not refuse.
Still, the guy that own this charger charges his batteries in this way so this could still be next to me in a race...
As a sidenote, I later found a tech note in my pitcase, from a different manufacturer saying that the recommended charger settings for IB4200 cells are 6A charge and 5mV deltapeak.

The other pack that blew up (LRP) was charged at 5,5A but I don't know the deltapeak setting.

I was listening to music while getting my car ready for the last final.
When I removed my headset I heard a fizzing noise and looked at my battery. Smoke was gushing out from one cell and I immediately shut the lid on the case with the charger. '
Then I realized that there were three more chargers, probably with batteries connected, in this case...
I opened the lid and pulled out the battery. Fortunately I was sitting at the rearmost row in the pit, with about 10m to the back wall.
I threw the battery along the floor over to the back wall. From then it was a matter of 3-5 seconds before the blast. And yes, this is a blast. Similar to a shotgun blast.

If that thing had blown up in my face I'm sure I would have been blind today. Fingers would have been lost if it had gone of when I held it.

[showtime]

sounds like you had a lucky escape by being able to get the pack away before it went off!
its a good remeinder to us all that ideally we need to monitor our cells when charging as things can & do happen!

dude your English is fantastic! your spelling etc is better than most people i know
when i raced in Norway this year i was surprised how good everybodys english was & everybody was so friendly. loved the place

[SlowOne]

Originally Posted by neiloliver

If people are charging at >4A then there is a name for that.. its called natural selection

I too remember the days of the N-1300SCR and KR-1800SCE etc... and yes we managed five minutes.. that last lap was somewhat fingers crossed though

Technical bit.. You know I mentioned the 1:1 match.. do you know what that is? I will explain if anyone is interested... All NiCd and NiMH cells have what is called an electrode match, it is the ratio between positive and negative electrodes. The negative electrode is ALWAYS larger than the positive. This is because a charging cell gives off oxygen gas from the positive electrode and this is recombined in the negative and keeps the cell in equilibrium (this is why you can trickle charge batteries in cordless screwdrivers, emergency lighting etc).. The problem with the match is that the capacity of the cell is driver by the shorter electrode, so a cell with long life that you can trickle charge needs a much longer negative electrode and this means low capacity. You can increase the capacity by having the electrodes similar lengths but this reduces the life and the cells ability to withstand overcharge abuse.. it also reduces the cycle life as the longer negative electrode is used as a reserve as it oxidises due to the oxygen in the system.

The faster the charge the more gas is generated, and this has to be combined.. if gas is generated faster than it can be combined then the cell pressure builds up and the cell has to vent. Venting is a safety measure and I am sure we have all heard it on old cells while charging. (a little fizzing sound) the problem with venting is that some electrolyte is lost and this dries out the cell, so a cell that has vented will quickly deteriorate. Of course if you are charging a fully charged cell at high rate then the gas cannot recombine fast enough and the cell vents... or explodes if there is an issue with the vent (sealed shut with solder, bent by abuse, blocked etc etc..).

Lastly, our hobby chargers terminate on what is called 'negative delta V' which is the roll over of voltage when the cell is fully charged, this phenomenon is caused by the recombination reaction and is handy because we can use it to stop our charging.. except that it does not happen instantaneously when repeaking a fully charged cell so you are pushing a fully charged cell further into overcharge by re-peaking. Couple this with the fact that the charger is not looking at each cell, it is looking at a six cell string and you have the problem of matching, where one lower capacity cell can be well into overcharge with it's pressure building up but your charger cannot detect it because the other five cells are masking the fall in voltage...

so..
only charge at 4A max
use a low -dV threshold (3mV/cell)
use a Max T temperature backup (45°C)
do not repeak
Always allow cells to cool before recharging
balance cells as often as you can on a discharger with a 0.9V cut-off

For anyone wanting good advice on charging, Neil seems to speak a lot of sense. I've used this regime and have IB cells still going strong (lost a bit of volts, but little capacity) after 18 months Club and National racing. This is from the IB site:

Charge the battery with quality charger, and max. current 3~4A.
Charging cut-off setting : Peak voltage = 5mV per cell, Temperature <55ºC,
and best with timer.
[Example on Peak voltage calculation : 6-cell pack = 5mV x 6 = 0.03V]
The battery can offer high current discharge, and be good for the level of
10A+ (with Tamiya plug).
If you expect to leave the battery idle for >2 weeks, charge it for 1/3 capacity
(say, 3A for 20 minutes)
Avoid to store the battery in hot & humid environment. Best temperature
would be around 20~25ºC

What's interesting is the recommended charge rate, and anticipated discharge rate!

Originally Posted by Ole C

If that thing had blown up in my face I'm sure I would have been blind today. Fingers would have been lost if it had gone of when I held it.

Good to get your direct experience, Ole. I think we know what can happen, but the truth is that in all these incidents with cells over the many years, I know of only one where there was an injury. Part of the problem (we leave cells to charge on their own) is also part of the reason that injuries are mercifully few.

Would anyone here give up their IBs if asked by their Club, or BRCA Section?

[RogerM]

As stated before I haven't even recieved my IB's yet (sunday from Neil) but I am already running scared ....... would I give them up and go back to something more stable like 3300/3000s ..... absolutely!!!! I am actually regretting getting IB's now and whished I'd spent more time hunting around for some well matched, lower capacity, cells. The only thing that reasures me is that Neil is personally building up my packs and doing the initial cycles ready for their first use on Sunday and that I am likely to pit near Dom of DC racing who has him self been a cell matcher (my old DC 3300s are still really good ..... not sure how after 3 years of storage!!!) who will not hold back in offering assistance (and shouting at me if needed if I'm doing something wrong!!!).

Obviously having been away for a couple of years I'm not sure personally but would anybody actually be going significantly slower on 3300s????

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by Northy

Even if some kid has them on charge in the garage, or on his bedroom floor?

G

Originally Posted by Northy

I was just point out why I though an 'on fire' lipo would be worse than an exploding nimh, but I agree, both are bad.

G

im not meaning either is better, but i do mean damage to me and fellow racers

leaving cells unatended while charging should be a big no no,

[KyoshoK]

Hey Ole C, where they new packs? did you just make the packs up? how many cycles did they have on them?

Thanks

[Ole C]

Hi

Good to see a forum where people actually read the posts before posting themselves.

KyoshoK: My packs were new at the DHI race in Denmark January this year. I guess they have 50-70 charges on them.

@Showtime: Thanks I think we spoke briefly at the cafeteria on our track, if you were here for the EFRA GP race this summer. I had the big tent with the cars/fuel etc. on display.

I think we all agree that there is no way this hobby can be 100% hazard free. But when such a large number of incidents occur in such a short time, and two of the major companies in this industry advice against using these cells, action must be taken. And of course not everybody will be happy.

My guess is that IB4200 cell will be banned shortly, or at least strict rules on how to charge them will be imposed.
Overall rules on charging is also inevetable I guess. And as long as we as racers do concern ourselves a bit more with safety when having fun with our cars, I think all will be good again

[BentM]

To clarify exactly what the federation has done:
We have adopted the new EFRA Rules immediately. This means the approved list of batteries is not allowed for racing in Norway. EFRA made new rules, which will ban nearly all approved batteries that are on the lists today. The dimensions are changing (length and diameter.)
Ole C explained very well what happened. This was reported to me, Monday morning. I then read it just after arriving from the EFRA AGMs where it was several countries who wanted the rule changes for batteries immediately.
Because EFRA do not have any race before 1st April, their rule changes takes effect from that date. In April all drivers anyway has to change batteries, maybe we can do it asap and only once this season?
We are investigating and really do hope to find some easy solution to start racing at club level as soon as possible. We have cancelled only one round of national races because of the unsure circumstances. We are getting help from our Government to investigate the batteries that exploded to check if they are made after rules for such products.
I have also asked distributors if they can recommend us to use some of their products. The answer was: We recommend you to wait for the new “generation” of batteries. So, we do that with the racing in Norway.
Next weekend we have our AGM-meeting and will discuss the matter with the clubs. I really do hope we find temporarely solution with their agreements.
You can read a press release sent to EFRA, all members of EFRA and several other interests here: http://www.rczone.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=834
And please, allow me to not have Ole Cs skills in English language. But with help from mr. Bill Gates I do hope its understanding.
Best Regards
Bent Magnussen
President Division Radio Controlled Motorsport
Norwegian Motorsport Federation

[Swiss]

Buy a Spintec, individual cell charger... checks each cell voltage and temperature.. Perfect! No problems with my IB's since purchased them begining of this year!

Charge at 5.5A, 48deg, 3mV cut off!

[Alfonzo]

Maybe everyone should be advised to go easy on the charging amps, as that seems to be the big factor here?

[DaveG28]

I am getting more and more scared by all this. From what I have seen, the lack of injuries is pure luck, and I am glad some of the federations are looking into it before its too late. This is a hobby, with many children involved, potentially these incidents could be lethal if someone was unlucky (for example leaning in to investigate the battery as its happening)! Ona less important note from a health point of view, even a relatively minor injury can lead to insurance claims, which may stop the BRCA gaining insurance, that WOULD stop our racing!

Personnally I am unsure what to do, I have only IB's from Orion. One pack I have connected the wrong way round (saved by the wires desoldering from the connectors) which I am now guessing may have damaged the vents? and two other packs pop and fizz every time they are charged!

On the one hand, if charging at 4 amps and the lowest delta peak cutoff will keep it safe, I am happy to sacrifice whatever performance, but although that helps do any of us know how much the risk is reduced?

Finally, people seem to be suggesting equalising often will help, is this true? I have an equaliser but have never used it so far!

[Cooper]

IB 4200 are not longer covered by the insurance from the Belgian federation...
They forbid the use of the IB cells!

http://users.telenet.be/fba/NLMededelen4.htm

[josh_smaxx]

It seems that we need to change cells then, until the manufacturer can make these cell reliable and safe then we are going to have to go back to GP, EP ect. And i cant see a problem with using these as they have plenty capacity, plenty of voltage and are a fair bit cheaper than IB's.

[neiloliver]

I am not sure it is as easy as that.. have you tried buying GP cells lately? they are very hard to come buy. I was told by GP in the UK that they are concentrating on other markets, and I dont think EP are more reliable. I get more DEAD-IN-BOX or low capacity EP cells than IB. How each would perform in a head to head abuse test I dont know. In the mean time I stongly suggest adhering the the best practice advice that I and others have posted in this thread. I do agree that some changes need to be made to protect us, our propery and out hobby and I am sure the BRCA will take the lead on this in the coming months.

N

[josh_smaxx]

Originally Posted by neiloliver

I am not sure it is as easy as that.. have you tried buying GP cells lately? they are very hard to come buy. I was told by GP in the UK that they are concentrating on other markets, and I dont think EP are more reliable. I get more DEAD-IN-BOX or low capacity EP cells than IB. How each would perform in a head to head abuse test I dont know. In the mean time I stongly suggest adhering the the best practice advice that I and others have posted in this thread. I do agree that some changes need to be made to protect us, our propery and out hobby and I am sure the BRCA will take the lead on this in the coming months.

N

True about getting hold of the GP cells, i never though of that, the EP's might go bad in that way (iv had a cell die) but i cant remember ere of a case of an EP exploding (waiting to be corrected on that one) and i think that they could hold out ok in an abuse test, especially against IB's, i think an ice swan would hold out better then IB's

[Cooper]

aren't the GP sub C cells used in cordless drills?

[neiloliver]

Not the high capacity ones for RC car use, they are too expensive and the cycle life would be too poor for cordless power tools, The GP220SCH would be used by GP in such applications, maybe the 3Ah cell but nothing higher than that. Sanyo dont sell higher than 2.6Ah and 3.0Ah Cs for powertool and I imagine the other main players are the same. Remeber that Power tool is split into two main markets.. professional and DIY. The professionals need top quality and cycle life, they use mostly japanese cells (Sanyo mostly). The DIY market uses Chinese cells and most of these are still NiCd with some NiMH.. but it's all Cheap.

[MattW]

Neil, In theory GP cells should be out there. I made some enquires about getting hold of some 4600s - apparently there were a load of them last spotted in a warehouse in Europe somewhere - Holland i think it was!!

GM have matched a few 4600's, but not been shipped over here. Orion likewise. Orion have also had some of the latest gen 4300's i believe, but not many, and not many shipped anywhere.