Gold Pan re-release RC10 - RACING

[jimmy]

You can build your dream shelfer with the new re-release but I am looking to get people racing the car as a new, stock fun class where it's only skill that'll see you take a win.

My suggestion is 100% stock car for now - if the steering proves just too much of a problem then we can change the rules.

Possibly spec electric combo, ESC and motor all stickered up for the rc10 classic. Not sure if this could be sold with the kits for a good price - or if CML could do something fora very keep price to allow the racing the start it needs. Or indeed I could look into some contacts to see what they could do - but it'd need to be pre-paid I guess.

Remembering the tyres are a bit crap - it's the same for everyone. No changes, to wheelbase mods, no extra shock tower holes drilled. 3-piece wheels, the lot.

If it's 32dp which I thought it was - then possibly also spec the gearing that everyone has to run.

Feel free to give some feedback - I'm in no way affiliated with AE or CML, but I just see a great vintage car that I think would be a very nice spectacle to see racing and possibly not cost too much to run.

I'm sure we'll start running these at oOple events but if other clubs are on the same wave length and we have an agreed set of rules and ideals - then it would make traveling around with your gold tub to other meetings a whole lot easier.

I'd be happy to keep a register of racers wanting to run and for the price of a 1st class envelope to me, I could send out some agreed-upon rules as well as some special decals to show their car is a legit legal vintage racer.

[AfroP]

i'll say yes for now, but have to find the money for the kit first lol
sounds a great idea

[Robby]

My suggestions, having raced these cars back in the day, would be:

* The kit steering/bellcrank system is total crap, and since modifying or upgrading it can be done inexpensively (and since enough of the old vintage NIB Losi, Hogue, etc. steering systems still exist) - and being as it does not make the cars faster - my suggestion would be that it should be open and anything goes.

* Being as these cars originally came with the old brushed Reedy blue label motors, but these re-releases are designed for BL/Lipo, my suggestion would be to keep a motor limit of 21.5 on these cars (we need to remember they're narrower and shorter than what we're currently used to).

* Since 48p gears were basically invented back during this era, because 32p was such a pain, and under the auspices of people not having to go out and buy a bunch of pinions to run these cars - my suggestion would be that it should be left open and anything goes.

* Not sure if this kit is going to come with tyres, but being as the shumacher Mini-Pins were basically invented back during this era (such a game-changer), and they're still so good today - my suggestion would be that they should be the control tyre.

* Kit wing, or other old-school narrow rear wing, requirement would be my advice as well. As we all know what a game changer that could be.

* Not sure how I feel about having a "one-car class," as I'm sure there are chaps that still have held onto their other cars from this era and would be interested in running them too, but aren't going to buy a re-release of something socked away in a closet somewhere, along with the guys that have the first generation Losi/Shumachers of that era that might want to run.



* one other thing I don't think I've seen discussed, other than me making fun of people having to build them (that haven't), is the 6-gear trannies that are included in this kit. from what I've read these chassis plates are going to come pre-drilled for the stealth tranny, and it's going to be available at a later date. so I just wanted to throw that out there for discussion.

[jimmy]

I have a losi jrx2 and along with the top cat, these cars are way in advance of an original rc10.

Not sure what spur gear you need - that has holes for the diff action - but it'd be better everyone also ran the same gearing. one or two 32dp pinions will probably be cheaper than a spur.

The steering was crap but I've used it.
I believe the 48dp gears debuted at the 87 worlds as a nice in-between those running 32 or 64? either way they weren't available for the original rc10 for a while.

Never seen a high profile mini pin/spike I have to admit. The smallest I ever saw was 2" which is way too big. So then you're basically looking maybe for early B3 wheels? Which you'll have a hard time finding.
Kit tyres is a winner
There's no slipper that you could really call a slipper - so super high bite mini spikes would tear that thing up.

For dirt - who knows, maybe proline will release an old mould with a new compound?

The more you want to modify it into a modern car - the more it takes away just quite how crap these things were compared to modern cars. Takes away the fun.
Remember these raced against Tamiya Roughriders - and I'm pretty sure they weren't running mini spikes either.

If someone still makes steering links thats one thing - there's not enough on ebay, I tried when I was wanting to upgrade my rc10 for vintage racing.

I propose a stock 83' standard rc10 class - std body and wing if required. Standard tyres - standard everything. If the steering really causes a lot of problems then a 'group buy' for all those want or thinking about racing their original rc10 shouldn't be a problem.
make it basic, make it fun and hopefully people will be interested to come race them and run to the rules.

The steering is the main concern I'd agree - but lets see what happens and hopefully if needed either AE will release something or we can group buy another one and keep the cars the same.

[jimmy]

It was even better when people like nick from Demon Power started hacking the chassis to make it like an inch or more shorter! lol

[terry.sc]

The steerings not that bad. It wore as the plastic parts pivoted on the screw threads so it got a bit sloppy but it still went left and right. I only replaced mine with the MIP setup when the threads had gone in the chassis holding the bolt in place so the whole assembly started rocking from side to side, and that was after years of use.

Replacement 48dp spurs are easy, 1/2th and 1/10th pan still use exactly the same standard spurs all these years later. But if you are nailing down a full spec for the class including gearing it's only going to cost one 32dp pinion instead of a load of 48dp spurs.

Even the early Schumacher full spike and blocks were on 2" wheels, the RC10 uses 1.6" rear wheels which is why the upgrade was a set of holiday buggy tyres. The alternatives that fit that are available are Tamiya Rough Rider and Frog tyres.
Minispkies were around late 80s, but minipins didn't turn up until the early 90s. If someone is looking at Schumacher minipins then you might as well go the whole way and get a set of 2.2" RC10 wheels from JC Racing.

I'm with Jimmy on this, run them standard as that makes it simple. If you want to change this and that because it makes it better/easier to drive or faster then you are missing the point Jimmy is making.


If anyone wants to open the class up to all makes, if you stick with 83/84/85 when this was released then your options are RC10, Scorpion, Frog, Rough Rider and Super Champ. Bring the cut off date just up to to 87 and these RC10 rereleases will get beaten by race built Ultimas.

[J'MM'N]

I would like to see it as a class, but would like to be able to do some regulated mods along the way and not restrict it to been out the box.

If Associated plans are to introduce different cars and new parts over time, then these could easily be amended to the rules as and when, wider arms, stealth gearbox etc are released. Again with people like Eaustace having a big interest in the re-re, then we are going to see the emergence of old hop ups being reproduced and again if they are commercially available then these could be amended within in the rules. What I would say is that any introduction to the rules kept within the original RC10's timeline, so no 2.2 wheels for a while

Motors I would say 17.5T or 21.5T which are from a chosen list, otherwise a handout motor if the price is right, if you stay with a one make handout then you would only need to purchase once for the season. ESC's most should be allowed and as long, as they are in blinky mode then they are all pretty similar. If for some reason a certain speedo should gain an advantage over others, then it gets banned from the series. Batteries and servo's I see no problem with what's available, none will give you an a substantial advantage and I would like to see my car go in a straight line

On the subject of going in a straight line, I never found any disadvantage to the kit steering and was using the same set up at national's and RRC up to 1990, as were many other drivers. The only mod I would say is a decent tie rod between servo and steering and a couple of tie rods. The ballraced set up looks good and was more precise, but in those days it was more important to have a decent servo, which we have in abundance nowadays.

A control tyre may be a good idea and perhaps the same for wheels, possibly somebody could do a 2.0" wheel. Don't Schumacher still make the 3x20 & 4x20 full spikes, they would be ideal, although you would need something different for clay.

Anyhow I think if you introduce re-re upgrades as they become commercially available and they fit in with the timeline then it would be good for the class. Would like to see other mods like hacking the chassis up, dyeing parts etc, whose gonna be the first to do a JV holey I just would like to see the class evolve through time ant not be like the Tamiya on road classes of the early 90's, although controlled it was totally boring.

Whatever is decided I'm all for giving it a go, will take me back to those early days and could be fun. The other question is, how many cars are going to be out there to race, as I guess a lot of the sales will never see a race track, let alone travel to one.

[Robby]

Originally Posted by terry.sc

If anyone wants to open the class up to all makes, if you stick with 83/84/85 when this was released then your options are RC10, Scorpion, Frog, Rough Rider and Super Champ. Bring the cut off date just up to to 87 and these RC10 rereleases will get beaten by race built Ultimas.

If you stick to the earlier years there, then it's not fair - because the RC10 was a game-changer, and all those Tamiyas no longer stood a chance.
But your second period isn't accurate, because after the carbon fiber cars (JRXs and Ultimas and RC10s) had been out two years Masami showed up at the Worlds in 1991 (I think) with a gold pan and killed everybody.

[Robby]

Originally Posted by jimmy

I have a losi jrx2 and along with the top cat, these cars are way in advance of an original rc10.

It wasn't like the JRX2, or top cats took over - the original RC10 was still competitive.
I was lured away from AE at the time, and it took us a while to get the JRX2s up to speed (ditching the dreadful trailing arms for starters).
When was the steath tranny introduced, 91 or 92?
But the car was still basically the same.

Originally Posted by jimmy

Not sure what spur gear you need - that has holes for the diff action - but it'd be better everyone also ran the same gearing. one or two 32dp pinions will probably be cheaper than a spur.
I believe the 48dp gears debuted at the 87 worlds as a nice in-between those running 32 or 64? either way they weren't available for the original rc10 for a while.

The same spur gears that fit 1/12th cars back then fit RC10s back then.
Remember "Kimbrough"?

Originally Posted by jimmy

Never seen a high profile mini pin/spike I have to admit. The smallest I ever saw was 2" which is way too big. So then you're basically looking maybe for early B3 wheels? Which you'll have a hard time finding.
Kit tyres is a winner

Never saw a high profile minipin either. Low-pro only.
What's the size of the original JRX2 (rear) rims, were they 2"? I thought they were 2.2
1.6 rims I don't remember running them any time after 85-86.
I could be wrong, but weren't the mini-pins introduced at the 87-88 worlds?
I was at all of them 86-89, and whenever they came out it was THE tire. I had one set I had to make last all weekend. LOL

Originally Posted by jimmy

There's no slipper that you could really call a slipper - so super high bite mini spikes would tear that thing up.

I was racing for Losi when Team Pitstop came out with the first workable slipper, 88-ish.

I'm only recalling these dates being pre-90 because I retired from racing and went back to college in 1990.

Originally Posted by jimmy

I propose a stock 83' standard rc10 class - std body and wing if required. Standard tyres - standard everything.

Other than I'm not to sure about a one-car class catching on - the other thing about "standard everything" rule is that what if spares become non-available? If you remember it was routine to "lunch a gearbox/tranny" during the course of a raceday (everyone always had a spare), and what are you going to do if there aren't parts available? What about a shortage of replacement tyres, etc. etc.
I'm just saying that if you try to restrict a class too quickly, the class could kill itself before it really gets started.

I know you're trying to keep things simple - but you know how it goes, nothing's ever simple.

[jimmy]

I think keep it standard from the off and as/when/if tyres for the small rims become available - or some small hopups that we can test and 'approve'. I don't think it needs to be a static class it could quite happily evolve slowly but keeping with the spirit of the 80's and cars generally being naff. If everyones got the same car with same stuff etc and a fairly steady motor then I think it will make for some great racing. It's just a bit of fun, there's no need to gallop to make these things a 1991 worlds replica or anything. That would be boring.

[Robby]

Originally Posted by jimmy

It's just a bit of fun, there's no need to gallop to make these things a 1991 worlds replica or anything. That would be boring.

WHAT........... no mullets, no parachute pants ..............COME ON MAN!

[J'MM'N]

Well if you have to run stock, at least you don't have to worry about changing shock springs Who remembers those shock bottoms without the slot, you had to unscrew the shock bottoms to get the springs off.

[Robby]

Originally Posted by J'MM'N

Well if you have to run stock, at least you don't have to worry about changing shock springs Who remembers those shock bottoms without the slot, you had to unscrew the shock bottoms to get the springs off.

DREMEL = DONE!


I don't know about you, but I'm sort of excited to hear all the grumbling these guys will be doing trying to build up a 6-gear.

[J'MM'N]

Originally Posted by Robby

I don't know about you, but I'm sort of excited to hear all the grumbling these guys will be doing trying to build up a 6-gear.

You could build today's car and have it running, quicker and less painfully than those six gear and it won't explode at the first meeting

[Ant]

Just need Mardave to start making the old Apache tyres again....they were the most popular tyres at our club, especially at 1.60 a pair and seemed to last forever.

[Crashtest33]

Don't we all have to wait and see what comes with the kit? If it comes with tyres I think we should all have to use them and order them from AE/CML as a spare part when they're worn out.

[jimmy]

Should come with the ones I've got on the car behind me - utterly useless in a modern car - but a spec rc10 it'll be OK. Hopefully there will maybe be another option for the small wheels coming. I think it's the only class I'd do at an oople event... apart from 2WD on this coming saturday for AndyG, who can't make it for qualifying.. lol.

Whether we run one heat, or two or more totally depends on demand - I think it's a good idea to have a general set of 'rules' however that everyone can choose to follow so if there's another event organised everyone is still 'legal' and the racing is fair.
As I said - I'll happily help organise it and those interested when the car comes out could register for say the price of a stamped self-address envelope to get some oOple vintage rc10 decals as a way to show their intentions to race a limited class. Along with a set of sensible rules closer to the time when we know what we're dealing with.
I mean, if the car is £200 here - would people baulk at the idea of £250 with a spec ESC and motor for signing up to the 'rules' with the intention to race locally and get their clubs into the idea, or nationally at oOple events? Not saying it's possible but you never know.

I think AE would like to see these cars being raced - that's what they're made for and the fact its the very original car that kicked it all off just makes it even better. I couldn't imagine a re-release ultima causing this much of a stir.

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by Robby

If you stick to the earlier years there, then it's not fair - because the RC10 was a game-changer, and all those Tamiyas no longer stood a chance.
But your second period isn't accurate, because after the carbon fiber cars (JRXs and Ultimas and RC10s) had been out two years Masami showed up at the Worlds in 1991 (I think) with a gold pan and killed everybody.

The 87 Worlds was dominated by carbon chassied Ultimas. For the 89 and 91 Worlds Associated built one off prototype 'Stealth' cars, with carbon fibre chassis, custom arms and the Stealth gearbox. The next time a relatively standard RC10 won was 93 when Kinwald won, but that was an RC10 Worlds which bore just a casual resemblance to the original gold pan.

Originally Posted by Robby

When was the steath tranny introduced, 91 or 92?
But the car was still basically the same.

1990, but that was in the Team car and even the CE by then had new shocks, UJs, long arms, revised front and rear suspension geometry and shock mounts, and 2" wheels. I wouldn't consider that basically the same.

1.6 rims I don't remember running them any time after 85-86.
I could be wrong, but weren't the mini-pins introduced at the 87-88 worlds?

2" wheels came about thanks to the Tamiya Hotshot in 85, but we were stuck with Tamiyas tyres until Schumacher brought out the CAT in 86 and then the choice was hard or soft spikes or Dynamite tyres as used on the Mini Mustang. At the 87 worlds Hirosaka won with cut down standard spikes and two row studs. Mini spikes came in around 1990 still on 2" wheels. There were also microspikes in the early 90s but the minipins didn't turn up until the mid 90s.

Other than I'm not to sure about a one-car class catching on - the other thing about "standard everything" rule is that what if spares become non-available? If you remember it was routine to "lunch a gearbox/tranny" during the course of a raceday (everyone always had a spare), and what are you going to do if there aren't parts available? What about a shortage of replacement tyres, etc. etc.

Associated has said there will be a spares backup for these cars. Considering you could still buy parts for the car introduced in 1983 even as late as 2005, and the bodies have never gone out of production, Associated are likely to keep spares in stock for some time. Those of us who still race the originals are only now running out of replacement outdrives for the 6 gear.
Yes the 6 gear could destroy the idlers, but they are considerably more durable if you cut the drive cups off the final gears and use them as idlers instead, plus Associated have said they have made the gearbox more durable to handle mild brushless.


There have been many successful one car classes over the years. Whether the chassis used has any flaws or you all have to use useless tyres is irrelevant as everyone is in exactly the same position, which is the whole appeal of it. Even the Tamiya TT01 had many happy racers when they ran the Eurocup because it then became all about the drivers and not the car.

[Robby]

Originally Posted by J'MM'N

You could build today's car and have it running, quicker and less painfully than those six gear and it won't explode at the first meeting

Ain't it the truth?

All I can envision, is all these guys now that seemingly are all thumbs (being as they struggle with these modern cars that fit like a glove), fumbling and bumbling trying to get a 6-gear to work. And then they'll be logging on here cussing and fuming.

[Robby]

Originally Posted by jimmy

I couldn't imagine a re-release ultima causing this much of a stir.

Not with the "factory explodomundo geardiff" they came with.