When is a 2wd not a 2wd

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by AC199

The team managers from Schumacher et al need a reality check for allowing this to happen, the negative publicity just keeps on rolling forwards on this one in my eyes.

What negative publicity?
When Neil Cragg won with the Centro prototype the press release said "Team Associated driver" Neil Cragg. If Tom Cockerill wins with a converted K1 then the press release still only says "Schumacher driver Tom Cockerill"

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by andys

Teams, Team drivers and manufacturers should be championing their commercially available chassis's for each class - not running home brew cut and shut concoctions.

Makes a mockery of the entire 'Team' and 'Team Driver' process.

So should Associated hand back their 89 and 91 World Championships? Both were won with hand built cars designed for those specific tracks and were never designed to be standard production cars. They sold an awful lot of standard RC10 kits on the back of those wins.
Should Kyosho hand back their 87 win, as there were more option parts on Joel Johnsons Ultima than standard parts. Or Craig Dreschers 95 Euros win with a prototype car that later became the CAT 2000EC. Or Jamie Booths 91 national win with a custom built buggy that was 'offically' a Manta Ray.

One of the points of team drivers is to develop the product, which means they are the ones you would expect to be running prototype parts and chassis.

[terry.sc]

Having missed this thread earlier, having read through it I'm amazed at some of the replies and that running a 2wd converted 4wd is 'gay' sums up the level of maturity of some of the arguments for this knee jerk reaction. Okay, you don't want them, but no one who wants converted 4wds banned has come up with a proper definition of a 2wd that bans only them.

2wds should only be allowed that are sold as 2wd buggies and no modifications allowed, well that argument falls down as a blanket rule to ban everything not sold as a 2wd buggy ends up banning any separate mid motor conversion. It also means no one can build their own cars either. All Schumacher has to do is leave front transmission parts out of a K1 and stick a Cougar K1 sticker on the box and you have a new kit sold as a 2wd buggy, so you now have a converted K1 allowed while the DB1 is banned.

One chassis plate allowed, so they have to choose which chassis to use. Yep, that works. I'm sure it wouldn't take much time to design a piece of carbon fibre that would fit underneath a Cougar and Cat and act as the 'chassis', or whatever other two options you want to use.

Converted 4WDs being competitive in the 2WD class is something that has happened at one major race meeting so far, that does not suggest that the 2WD/4WDs will work at every other track. Off road racers usually make fun of the on road classes having strict rules, yet if something new and different comes along the on road classes embrace it if it works, while the off roaders seem to just want to moan about it being different.

You know the rules, if you want to change things put in a proposal at the AGM and get it voted on. If the majority agree with you then it gets passed. If no one proposed new rules we would still be using brushed motors and nimhs.

[adey]

I don't know if this is true but I was told by a racer friend of mine that leaving the front diff in these 4wd/2wd hybrids causes a gyro effect which gives them an advantage. I don't know if this is true but if it is, why can't there be a rule to ban people running a front diff in a 2wd car. Thus taking away the advantage.

[adam_u]

Why should they be banned? I think there are two options, suck it up and race against people using 4wd as 2wd, or, if you think the advantage is so great, buy one/run one yourself. I personally think a lot of this is down to rumour mill and kidology, 8/10 cars at a national A final were these cars, how many of those would have been in the A final anyhow? Were there any huge leaps from people who would normally be D/E/F/G... final finishers?

I personally don't think there is anything to ban, if there is some sort of gyroscope handling package going on here (i remain sceptical) then it should be developed, not banned.

Ban innovation, ban progress, ban people beating me!

[adey]

I would love to spend money on a 4wd car and run it as a 2wd but I have just bought a 2wd car and spent a fortune on it because the manufacturer said it was innovative etc etc etc. I then find that the manufacturers team guys are running a 4wd car converted instead of the 2wd car that I bought. I wasted my money on it obviously.

[johnboy]

This thread is getting boring now WHO CARES who runs what car.

[SlowOne]

"Virtuous people often revenge themselves for the constraints to which they submit by the boredom which they inspire." Confucius.

[Danny Harrison]

Originally Posted by johnboy

This thread is getting boring now WHO CARES who runs what car.

44.6% of voters

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by adey

I don't know if this is true but I was told by a racer friend of mine that leaving the front diff in these 4wd/2wd hybrids causes a gyro effect which gives them an advantage. I don't know if this is true but if it is, why can't there be a rule to ban people running a front diff in a 2wd car. Thus taking away the advantage.

Really? How much of a flywheel effect do you think a plastic diff pulley, a couple of washers and a few balls is going to make? If it did give a gyro effect and it was an advantage, we would all be using brass front diff pulleys in our cars and after 30 years of car development we would have them in 2wds. All that leaving the diff in there does is put a tiny bit of inertia in the drivetrain so it accelerates and brakes a bit less than if the parts weren't there. It also means they are carrying more weight than they need to.

The reason the diffs were left in there was because it's a fairly major job to get the belt out of a K1, not for any performance reasons.

And if you want to introduce a rule then you know what to do, come up with one that will actually work, put in a proposal for the AGM and persuade enough people to get it voted in.

Originally Posted by adey

I would love to spend money on a 4wd car and run it as a 2wd but I have just bought a 2wd car and spent a fortune on it because the manufacturer said it was innovative etc etc etc. I then find that the manufacturers team guys are running a 4wd car converted instead of the 2wd car that I bought. I wasted my money on it obviously.

Really? Because expert drivers used a non production car on one or two particular tracks, you have wasted your money buying a car that will be faster for less able drivers on almost any other track? At most tracks a converted 4wd will get soundly beaten by a dedicated 2wd. From that logic you wouldn't choose a B4 or TRF201, because their team drivers don't use standard production cars in the UK either.

You've got to think why did the converted 4wds do reasonably well, after all they were still beaten at Stotfold by an RB6 and a Centro so they are not overall any better than a well set up 2wd.
The front geometry is quite different to a 2wd, and if these very high grip tracks were more common I'm sure manufacturers could have alternative front bulkheads with lower caster angles and more suitable geometry. The difference is it's easy just to try a converted 4wd and see if it works reasonably okay, than develop new front end parts that will only work on a handful of tracks. It would be interesting to see how a 2wd with a 4wd front end on it would perform at Stotfold, and if it works how many people will complain about that as well.

To be competitive at national level the cost of having a second car to choose from is fairly minimal compared to the cost of travel and accommodation and consumables like tyres to do the national series, so having a 'spare' 2wd for high grip tracks doesn't make much difference to your costs. If you are just club racing then why on earth should the cars racers are using elsewhere be relevant to you, all that you should be concerned about is which cars do well at your local tracks.

Moaning about it on forums and websites won't make any difference to the rules, if anyone wants to somehow 'ban' particular chassis then come up with a rule and get the majority to vote it in at the AGM, if you don't want to do that then you will just have to live with what we've got right now.

[dodgydiy]

if anything when running a 4wd as a 2wd, driveshafts should be made to be removed, not anything else. there is little to gain from the stated gyro effect, but a lot more to gain with having an adjustable association between the front wheels where by the diff can be used to adjust the handling of the car and the amount of drive given to the slower moving wheel in a corner by the faster moving wheel on the outside of the car. try driving a touring car with a broken front belt, it can be driven quite reasonably, but take out the front drive and its a right handful.

[adey]

It's my opinion, you don't have to agree with it. I appreciate your comments and respect your opinion. I will say there are alot of racers who feel the same as I do though.

Originally Posted by terry.sc

Really? How much of a flywheel effect do you think a plastic diff pulley, a couple of washers and a few balls is going to make? If it did give a gyro effect and it was an advantage, we would all be using brass front diff pulleys in our cars and after 30 years of car development we would have them in 2wds. All that leaving the diff in there does is put a tiny bit of inertia in the drivetrain so it accelerates and brakes a bit less than if the parts weren't there. It also means they are carrying more weight than they need to.

The reason the diffs were left in there was because it's a fairly major job to get the belt out of a K1, not for any performance reasons.

And if you want to introduce a rule then you know what to do, come up with one that will actually work, put in a proposal for the AGM and persuade enough people to get it voted in.


Really? Because expert drivers used a non production car on one or two particular tracks, you have wasted your money buying a car that will be faster for less able drivers on almost any other track? At most tracks a converted 4wd will get soundly beaten by a dedicated 2wd. From that logic you wouldn't choose a B4 or TRF201, because their team drivers don't use standard production cars in the UK either.

You've got to think why did the converted 4wds do reasonably well, after all they were still beaten at Stotfold by an RB6 and a Centro so they are not overall any better than a well set up 2wd.
The front geometry is quite different to a 2wd, and if these very high grip tracks were more common I'm sure manufacturers could have alternative front bulkheads with lower caster angles and more suitable geometry. The difference is it's easy just to try a converted 4wd and see if it works reasonably okay, than develop new front end parts that will only work on a handful of tracks. It would be interesting to see how a 2wd with a 4wd front end on it would perform at Stotfold, and if it works how many people will complain about that as well.

To be competitive at national level the cost of having a second car to choose from is fairly minimal compared to the cost of travel and accommodation and consumables like tyres to do the national series, so having a 'spare' 2wd for high grip tracks doesn't make much difference to your costs. If you are just club racing then why on earth should the cars racers are using elsewhere be relevant to you, all that you should be concerned about is which cars do well at your local tracks.

Moaning about it on forums and websites won't make any difference to the rules, if anyone wants to somehow 'ban' particular chassis then come up with a rule and get the majority to vote it in at the AGM, if you don't want to do that then you will just have to live with what we've got right now.

[adey]

Interesting point.

Originally Posted by dodgydiy

if anything when running a 4wd as a 2wd, driveshafts should be made to be removed, not anything else. there is little to gain from the stated gyro effect, but a lot more to gain with having an adjustable association between the front wheels where by the diff can be used to adjust the handling of the car and the amount of drive given to the slower moving wheel in a corner by the faster moving wheel on the outside of the car. try driving a touring car with a broken front belt, it can be driven quite reasonably, but take out the front drive and its a right handful.

[Danny Harrison]

Originally Posted by dodgydiy

if anything when running a 4wd as a 2wd, driveshafts should be made to be removed, not anything else. there is little to gain from the stated gyro effect, but a lot more to gain with having an adjustable association between the front wheels where by the diff can be used to adjust the handling of the car and the amount of drive given to the slower moving wheel in a corner by the faster moving wheel on the outside of the car. try driving a touring car with a broken front belt, it can be driven quite reasonably, but take out the front drive and its a right handful.

Heh, im gonna give it a crack next week now. Pull front driveshaft out of my b44 andsee if i can keep up

[kartstuffer]

Hey i can now get my TM2 round quicker than my 410 so i am going to use it in the 4wd class even though it is 2wd

[kartstuffer]

I did a comparison last week on the 2wd v 4wd thing, same track same night. interesting
me---------------------------------- a. n. other.
210------------ 19.02---------------- 18.60
410 4wd------ -18.62 -----------------didnt try, guessing at high 17sec.
410 2wd------- 19.26---------------- 18.45
TM2----------- 18.44---------------- 18.40
All using the same tyres , different speedos etc but set up to be as similar as possible, i found the 410 in 2wd trim too quick for my reaction time but a better driver could make it very quick, so a lot of it is down to the drivers style of driving and different ability.

[slow bob]

is there not a difference in size between a 2wd 1/10th and a 4wd 1/10th

what are the current regs on scale as a 4wd buggy in full scale will be bigger than a 2wd buggy.

there must a difference in wheelbase length ect between the two that will be enforceable.

[hotrodchris]

The same box is used to measure both classes for size, there is only a minimum weight restriction that a 2wd would have to meet to race in a 4wd class, but no max weight so a 4wd is always over weight for the 2wd class!

[mrspeedy]

Has anyone tried a 4wd converted front wheel drive ?

[Dudders]

We tried an XB4 in FWD it was poo...