Nick Griffin on Question Time

[Alfonzo]

Slow One -

[DaveG28]

Originally Posted by SlowOne

This thread is a mirror of what happens to one-issue parties like the BNP. Once the initial burst of bile has gone, people get back to talking about what really matters, and realise that single-issue parties can't help the real problems.

@DaveG28 - I'll remember that when my taxes have gone up by 30% or so in the years to come. Bankers were not at fault, and I'm only paying off a National Debt bigger than anything for 200 years because manufacturing deserved to fail because it wasn't customer focused. I don't think manufacturing has put me in £200bn debt, nor do I think that any of the UK banks owned by France, Spain and Germany have either. If you think your tax rate is high now...

I'm not sure what your getting at tbh, I never said where I think the debt problem is from! In my view though it's because as a country of voters, we demanded labour levels of investment in NHS/Schools etc, but are only prepared to pay Tory rates of tax! It's our whole countries fault really for how we've voted, and allowing pfi's etc where we defer public spending but then pay the private investor far more in the long run!

Not sure if your blaming banks, or claiming I'm blaming manufacturing, but it's not either!

I'm sure everyone's right though, if we'd spent another 20 years bailing out British Leyland, bailed out Rover (Again!), kept loss making coal mines open, ordered ships we don't need to keep all the yards open, put punitive taxes on imports so it's cheaper to buy British than foreign (losing our exports as other countries retaliate), kicked out foreign labour to drive incomes up (prices too!), taken back the 5m Brits abroad when again other countries retaliate, if we'd only done all that, everything would be just fine and Dandy now!!

Sorry for being sarcastic everyone, I'm just a fundamentalist free Market capitalist!!

[DCM]

Actually, the one of the reason LDV went bust, is because local government and government agencies were forced to seek savings, so instead of buying LDV vehicles, and support the British industry, now we have lost it. Where we the government could buy British, it should, like when it orders millitary equipment, it is a sneaky way of subsidising industry.

France does it, Germany does, Spain, so why not us? The more we have to buy in, the bigger the defecit, the harder it is to pay back the debt.

[DaveG28]

Originally Posted by DCM

Actually, the one of the reason LDV went bust, is because local government and government agencies were forced to seek savings, so instead of buying LDV vehicles, and support the British industry, now we have lost it. Where we the government could buy British, it should, like when it orders millitary equipment, it is a sneaky way of subsidising industry.

France does it, Germany does, Spain, so why not us? The more we have to buy in, the bigger the defecit, the harder it is to pay back the debt.

You missed the bit about our taxes going up to pay the extra for LDV. Also, the deficit affected by that is the balance of trade, not budget deficit (except the lost tax back in by paying our taxes to UK businesses for them to then pay tax on).

The fact is, we had this manufacturing Utopia in the 70's, and that went just great didn't it!! Even without the same competition that's out there now!

[SlowOne]

Dave, we're both on the same page, and it's difficult to get across what we really mean when we're typing it, not saying it, and we don't reply to each other for a couple of days!!

One thing about the free market economy though - it's dead. If we were running a free market economy, no bank would have been given a single penny. We'd have let the market sort this out, and let those companies take the consequences of their actions. We didn't. It's no longer a free market when Governments own more of the banks than shareholders do. As it sits, they have all taken advantage of the free market when it's on the up, but not suffered the consequences when it drops - it's so close to Communism it hurts!!

Manufacturing Utopia in this country ended in the 19th century, long before it all went downhill in the '70s. But, again, it wasn't a free market! Thatcher liberated the financial markets, but failed to do the same for the manufacturing sector. All the red tape of export controls remained, export credit guarantees were withdrawn (when Germany and Japan were increasing theirs) business rates soared, and inflation was rampant leading to higher wage costs (when, again, Japan, Germany and the US were controlling theirs) and the control of the £ was a shocking cock-up between Lawson and Lamont.

We talk free-market a lot, but the reality is Governments don't allow one. True, manufacturer's in the 1970s thought they could run companies on a spreadsheet (tongue in cheek there, but you get my drift) but let's not kid ourselves the market is free!

And, by the way, are there any Nick Griffin articles in the press today? Thought not!!

[DCM]

Originally Posted by DaveG28

You missed the bit about our taxes going up to pay the extra for LDV. Also, the deficit affected by that is the balance of trade, not budget deficit (except the lost tax back in by paying our taxes to UK businesses for them to then pay tax on).

The fact is, we had this manufacturing Utopia in the 70's, and that went just great didn't it!! Even without the same competition that's out there now!

Look at it from another point of view, them jobs lost, were skilled work, if they have managed to get re-employment, it will be semi-skilled, so less pay, and less tax, all be it direct (income tax) and indirect (VAT on items bought). Things are never simple, the job I left through redundancy, paid £22K a year, I would be lucky to get one paying £16K, so that is £6k less earnings to claim income tax and NI on, plus, what is left, I am not spending, then, as I have a family, more Tax Credit too, so they get less from me, and give me more.

There are times where it is better to subsidise than it is, to allow to fold, I am not saying, being allowed to run at catastrophic losses, and not be allowed to be bought and asset stripped either. It is far better to keep a population gainfully employed than to sit on it's butt. The past two governments have systematically stripped the engineering heart out of the UK, through selling of it's government departments, and usually to a far from worthwhile price too.

We live in a hard world, and the way things are going, we are going to be a country that is second class to the world, as we will have no engineering enviroment, to support ourselves, all because we have sold off some world leading organisations.

When I left Military Aircraft maintenance, I was happy to, to be honest, as the ethics we were working to, had changed for the worse, instead of pushing out aircraft, that had be maintained to the highest degree, we were treating like we do, out cars, making sure they are airworthy, but not really fit for purpose, as the cost and time allowed, to fully overhaul was gone. This was borne out by a verdict over an RAF tanker that exploded in flight in Iraq, substandard maintenance due to target driven finances. This is where the country has gone wrong, we expect the best, but dont want to pay the full price.

[SlowOne]

Oscar Wilde - "What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything, and the value of nothing." Wilde, an Irishman by birth, lived in London, Paris and New York, so perhaps he knew a thing or two about us!!