Homologation, Rules and Scrutineering

[jimmy]

Just thought I'd open up a debate on these things and see what people think.

For all the classes of racing there are rules, some have homologated aspects and most have some scrutineering. Most of this is probably a good thing.

8th buggies have their tanks checked for capacity - but the only national I've ever been to, I was shocked to see that it ultimately came down to a divide between people who could run 10 minutes and those that couldn't - and therefore had to pit more often.

Things like ground effects and body height rules are sensible in touring cars - and I believe the bodies have to be marked these days. I have to question why they aren't forced to run actual touring car bodies but instead streamlined bathtubs that look nothing like a car I'd want to be seen in!

When it comes to electric racing - and particularly off-road where my personal interest mainly lays with (hey, I like it all tho), there's a limiting factor called skill.
10th buggy racers are more equal than ever before - despite, not because of, the scrutineering, rules and homologation. When you can always have more power and duration than you could possibly ever use, why homologate?

At BRCA off road 10th nationals the cars are weighed (doesn't everyone run much heavier than the rules anyway?) and put in a box to check dimensions. It's all good. These days the cells are checked for voltage above the norm - it was explained to me that people have been known to cheat by over-cooking their lipo's in some way, but clearly in off road, no one is ever going to do that, because it won't make a difference.
I think now they might claim it to be a safety issue - but standing there revving the car until the voltage drops would have been the same if the car had done a warmup lap anyway.

Lipo bags - are there guidelines for these? My lipo bag I can't see possibly stopping the devastating power of a lipo going off. Maybe that's something that actually should be homologated, and properly tested.

The most dangerous batteries in the entire universe as far as I'm concerned were the last generation of NiMh cells. I'd say these were less predictable and possibly more dangerous than a lipo cell - but there were no charging-in-sac rules for those. I personally witnessed a pack explode in a car that was being carried - it blew the car apart. I also saw a pack explode on someones table - luckly they weren't there, but some people got hit far away by metal from the huge explosion. Some how these were homologated!

So then my main puzzlement is:

Why are motors homologated - what is the advantage in off road?
They were homologated when we were all running brushed motors and it was NOT fair or equal in any way - team guys got motors wound for them, not off the shelf jobs that 'normal people' could buy. So it didn't work then and imho it's not even needed now because it's been made equal by progress.

Batteries - why are they homologated? For sure spec them in a hard case and 7.4v etc - but why do they need homologation.
Homologation for cells was utterly useless when we used nicad's and NiMh's because team guys got better cells than any 'factory team' cells normal folk could buy. The best cells I ever had were old knackered cells from a multiple national winner.
So, given the fact that homologation never made anything really 'fair' - and that technology has made off road about as fair as it gets..... why?

Why are lipo cells which are well known to sometimes swell slightly with normal use, I mean, fractions of a mm, homologated but still illegal? Technically I'd guess that there's plenty of drivers running homologated cells that brand new or well used are technically illegal. Surely if you homologate something, it's legal - but it doesn't work that way.
No one is hurting for run time, no one is hurting for speed or power - certainly it's sensible to express maximum sizes but these shouldn't be down to microns and drivers shouldn't have to endanger themselves by dremeling their volatile batteries until they meet the size requirements - even though they bought the cells that were on the approved list.

So - what good is homologation when homologated cells are illegal due to manufacturing tolerences. And why is it legal to weaken the case by filing it down to meet the size. Who is gaining an advantage, really.

One of the few advantages some sponsored drivers may have these days is in the software on their ESC's. They will get the latest developments before anyone but this isn't regulated at all. One area that you could argue should be homologated but isn't - I wouldn't argue for it, but it shows how behind the times some of these things are.

I think there's a lot of daft things personally that need modernising. How can you possibly have a rule that states your 'open cage' buggy should be a realistic representation and have a driver figure............ but then you allow a cab forward shell? Yes - you can run a shell no possible scale humanoid would ever fit in that looks nothing like a buggy but more like a spaceship - and you can have painted opaque windows if you like.
Hey - but don't forget that driver figure in your cage body that needs to be based upon genuine desert racing buggies... etc. Please bring photo evidence that this is based upon...

Body shell holes - how can you say they need to be defined by the manufacturer - if I buy a shell and modify it then I become the manufacturer. Same as if I'd backpoured the body, re-moulded it, made a fake website and declare that everwhere is a vent. Common sense works better - if it's outrageous and clearly dangerous or looks stupid then you can ban it on-site.

I'm in it for the love - rules, control tyres and fair racing are all good. I think things are well behind the times though. Having your wheel nuts slightly interfere with a size checking box makes ab-so-lutely no difference on the track but you win the worlds with that and you'd be disqualified. Silly.

Just my opinions really. I thought a sensible thread on these sort of regulations whether ROAR, IFMAR, EFRA or BRCA etc are worth discussion since I can't be the only one to think some of these things don't help the sport from a professional, and certainly hobbyist level.


Note:
These are just ideas or opinions, don't cry.

[MikePimlott]

I think the homoligation of cells and motors is basically to keep us safe.
The things on the homoligation lists are tested for safety purposes and the added to the list, i think this is a good thing.

When cab forward first came to light in 8th it was not allowed because it was not a true representation of the scale class, i think that was silly. I beleive cab forward has disadvantages aswell as advatanges and you should be able to choose whatever you want.

[jimmy]

I'm not sure how a motor isn't safe - there are rules for motors - there doesn't need to be homologation. Homologation is there to make it fair - it didn't work, and now is outdated imho.

Homologated lipos blow up on very rare occasions - how is that safer than another cell that very rarely blows up. Homologated lipo's are also not by virtue of homologation legal to use at sanctioned events. By admission of the BRCA - manufacturers don't keep to their homologated design - why is that XXXXXX lipo that's ROAR approved and is exactly the same cell you use branded ZZZZZZ unsafe suddenly?

Is my Hobbywing ESC unsafe because I'm not running a branded Speedpassion?

Homologation isn't a safety issue - it's there to make the racing fair. When was the last time a motor without the manufacturers name on the end cap unsafe?

Safety is NOT the reason, equal competition IS - so therefore it's useless. Just my opinions though.

[MikePimlott]

If thats the case, then i agree with you.

Freedom of choice should be the way.

[AfroP]

I'd have to agree with Jimmy.
Why do we need motors to adhere to a certain list? I'm on a fairly tight budget as a racer, I dont run nationals and will be the first to stick my hand up and say I'm not the best driver in the world. So why should I be forced to buy a motor off the Homologation list for £60-£100 when it makes more sense to my pocket to get one thats not on the list for £25

I do understand the need for some scrutiny when it comes lipos as it could be dangerous to others if a badly swollen and over charged lipo goes pop

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by AfroP

I'd have to agree with Jimmy.
Why do we need motors to adhere to a certain list? I'm on a fairly tight budget as a racer, I dont run nationals and will be the first to stick my hand up and say I'm not the best driver in the world. So why should I be forced to buy a motor off the Homologation list for £60-£100 when it makes more sense to my pocket to get one thats not on the list for £25

You don't. Nothing in the rules state that off road must use the EB lists. It's the off road racers who decided to do so when they voted to use the EB lists. If you want to allow everything then, again, propose to drop the use the EB lists at the AGM and vote on it.

F1 allows any 21.5T motor as long as the manufacturer had homologated the same can in any other class. 1/12th and GT12 allow any cheap lipo as long as it is commercially available and it does not need homologating. Bikes allow just about anything motor and battery wise.

And if you aren't running nationals or regionals then what motor and lipo you are allowed is entirely down to the club and has nothing to do with the BRCA. there is nothing in the rules that state that clubs must follow BRCA rules, that is their individual choice.

[danDanEFC]

I wonder why their is a radio compound at Nationals when most are on 2.4?

[jimmy]

Originally Posted by danDanEFC

I wonder why their is a radio compound at Nationals when most are on 2.4?

It has been proven by the warriors of oOple.com - that if all those 110 drivers not racing at the time had their radios on, no one would be able to bind their cars. - not much chance of that happening, but there's certainly a limit to 2.4ghz!

I don't know of the brca checking for swolen packs - never heard of that. They don't check for over charged cells either - they only check voltage for reasons of cheating. Yes it's dangerous to try get the volts up, but that's for stock racing, not modified off road. If the cells are over-voltage it makes absolutely no difference to discharge them slightly at the race control. When they do that, it can only be explained as a fair-racing rule, not as a safety rule.
At what point is a stressed lipo safe or not safe just because it's being checked before going on the track. It drops voltage as soon as it's used whether that's on the bench at scrutineering or on the warmup lap - the only way you could excuse it as a safety issue is to immediately ban the person from the meeting for having a lipo that's over the normal voltage. That would force everyone to 'be safe' and make sure their charger was working correctly / the pack was safe.

I don't for a second believe there's any safety in taking an overcooked lipo to a tent full of people so they can stick pokey bits in it to see if it's about to blow up. You either ban people or you stop checking.

Personally I've never in my life seen a lipo blow up - I've seen plenty of NiMh's blow up and it is scary. But if my lipo was dangerous I'd MUCH rather it blow up on the track than in a tent full of people looking closely at it - and they are ONLY checking before you go on the track remember. There's absolutely nothing safe about it unless you confiscate packs (I'd wrestle it back if it were mine) or ban people.

Maybe I think about things too much - but I see sillyness then I call it silly.

[Frecklychimp]

Have to agree too,

My pet hate with the lipo/motor list is it prices out a lot of club racers i've known from taking the step up from club racing into BRCA Regionals and onwards, purely because they have to spend extra to buy something which does the same job.

The lists 10/15 years ago were also to keep costs down for competitors, capping costs made no difference to safety and i'll admit we used to pretty much fry nicads on chargers till they were boiling to get punch out of them to keep up with those team cells and expert hand wound motors!

The bodyshell rules are laughable, surely air holes keep things cooler and help prevent meltdowns

Lipo bags/containers should be homologated/rated by proper destruction testing under realistic conditions... for the safety of everyone if we have to use them. Is it better to have a random unpredicted burning bag in the middle of pits or to be able to see a lipo swelling and being able to get it out of human reach asap before it goes up?

I did find it funny at an undisclosed meeting/venue last year when told to scrutineer ourselves, funnily enough we were all legal that round!

[dodgydiy]

i agree about the homologation issues. the demon cells i use were listed when i bought them, but reading the rules are now no longer legal as they are not on the list. yes they are five years old, but have been looked after, all work perfectly, have no swelling etc. and still have plenty of punch. why should an average club driver be forced to buy new gear to do a national....... Also the cells in the majority of lipo packs come from a very limited number of factories, most expensive approved cells are likely to be of the same make and model as those used in cheaper unapproved packs with no difference in build or quality other than the plastic case. as far as motors, i can see reasons for homologation for limited classes like 13.5 or 10.5 to create a more equal playing field, but is pretty pointless when there is software around for speed controls that can make a 13.5 piss all over a 6.5 turn motor. open classes shouldnt be homologated. i use the cheap ezrun motors at club, why not allow people to use them at national level, they give no advantage, just work perfectly well enough for an average driver, they just lack a sticker with a make on that adds £50 to the price. anything that cuts costs has got to be good for the sport, and good for clubs holding national events as more people are likely to be encouraged to give it a try

[dodgydiy]

nearly forgot, a lipo bag is nowhere near as safe as a metal ammunition box for containing a fire, so why are charging containers superior to a lipo bag not allowed?? rather than homologate the bags wouldnt it be better to put a fire rating on them similar to the method used with building materials, ie a time that the bag should contain a fire for

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by dodgydiy

i agree about the homologation issues. the demon cells i use were listed when i bought them, but reading the rules are now no longer legal as they are not on the list. yes they are five years old, but have been looked after, all work perfectly, have no swelling etc. and still have plenty of punch. why should an average club driver be forced to buy new gear to do a national..

Because they are no longer commercially available. To allow your pack creates a loophole for manufacturers to create 'special' team packs for those classes where batteries do make a difference. In on road you will be nowhere with a 5 year old pack in your car.

i use the cheap ezrun motors at club, why not allow people to use them at national level, they give no advantage, just work perfectly well enough for an average driver, they just lack a sticker with a make on that adds £50 to the price.

Because they aren't commercially available in the UK. I know they are cheap and lots of us have them, but none of us have walked into a UK shop and bought it over the counter. Every motor and battery needs a UK distributor to submit it, so they can prove they are genuine with customer backup in case anything goes wrong.

As an example, what if a lipo caught fire when at home, like what happened with Gil Losi. Your insurance company will pay up and then chase the UK distributor for the money they have paid out. If there is no official UK distributor then the importer is you and you would end up picking up the bill.

[terry.sc]

Jeez, do people really have no idea how the BRCA is run and how the rules are formed? I will no doubt repeat this time and agin, but there is now 'us' and 'them', the BRCA is run entirely by racers just like you and me, except they are prepared to put their free time into helping the hobby instead of moaning about it online.
If you want to change anything at all in the rules then all you have to do is put in a proposal and vote on it at the AGM. If you can argue your case and the majority agree then your proposal will get passed. If you can't be bothered to do that then you can't really complain because others have made a different decision.

Originally Posted by jimmy

8th buggies have their tanks checked for capacity - but the only national I've ever been to, I was shocked to see that it ultimately came down to a divide between people who could run 10 minutes and those that couldn't - and therefore had to pit more often.

Just like the old days of 1/10th buggies. Limited battery capacity meant you either fitted a lower wind and drove steady for five minutes, or you put a softer wind in there, geared up and drove harder. In 1/8th limited tank capacity means you either tune the engine to run leaner and driver more carefully or you run hard to make up the extra stop. It's not whether they could or couldn't, it's their choice whether to stretch out fuel stops or not.

I have to question why they aren't forced to run actual touring car bodies but instead streamlined bathtubs that look nothing like a car I'd want to be seen in!

Because the rules have limited what they can do with the bodies. If you think they look bad now just think what they would look like without an restrictions on body design.
If your complaint is that they don't look realistic, why aren't you also complaining that buggies look even further from the real thing. If touring cars should be running scale replica shells then buggies should have live axles and a cage like the Axial Wraith, not something that bears no resemblance to the real thing.

When it comes to electric racing - and particularly off-road where my personal interest mainly lays with (hey, I like it all tho), there's a limiting factor called skill.
10th buggy racers are more equal than ever before - despite, not because of, the scrutineering, rules and homologation. When you can always have more power and duration than you could possibly ever use, why homologate?

Because the drivers in the class decided amongst themselves at the BRCA AGM to only use parts on the BRCA Electric Board list. No class is forced to use BRCA homologated motors and batteries, several classes don't use the homologation lists. The lists are to ensure relative equality between all the various brands. Yes there are minor differences, but it stops someone sticking a 17.5T label on a 15.5T motor and then it being the only motor to run in the 17.5 class.

If you want a free for all just propose it and vote on it at the AGM.

These days the cells are checked for voltage above the norm - it was explained to me that people have been known to cheat by over-cooking their lipo's in some way, but clearly in off road, no one is ever going to do that, because it won't make a difference.
I think now they might claim it to be a safety issue - but standing there revving the car until the voltage drops would have been the same if the car had done a warmup lap anyway.

You are assuming that a small increase in battery voltage won't make a difference in all other classes. If you run a spec touring car class then that little extra voltage will make your car go a little bit faster. When qualifying results are measured in tenths or hundredths of a second every little counts. If there isn't a limit where do you stop overcharging? 8.45v, 8.6v? We have all seen the videos on youtube of what happens when you overcharge a lipo, it just reduces the chance of accidents.

Lipo bags - are there guidelines for these? My lipo bag I can't see possibly stopping the devastating power of a lipo going off. Maybe that's something that actually should be homologated, and properly tested.

The most dangerous batteries in the entire universe as far as I'm concerned were the last generation of NiMh cells. I'd say these were less predictable and possibly more dangerous than a lipo cell - but there were no charging-in-sac rules for those. I personally witnessed a pack explode in a car that was being carried - it blew the car apart. I also saw a pack explode on someones table - luckly they weren't there, but some people got hit far away by metal from the huge explosion. Some how these were homologated!

I would ask around the 1/12th racers then. They have seen several lipo fires in their pits.

A nimh cell will go bang and make a loud noise. Nimh have always been fairly safe until Intellect really took the piss with the rules, designing cells that the process of soldering a pack together usually meant you melted the safety vent. All the cells I have seen that were pretty destructive were Intellects. Most will just pop the cap off, some will throw their contents across the room, but that's it, done. it might be a bit warm but nothing more is going to happen.

With lipos they are self sustaining, once started it will keep on burning at very high temperatures until it has expended all its energy. The point of a lipo sack isn't to control an explosion or to be left burning on your pit table, it buys you some time when the pack ignites. For most lipos in planes and helicopters the standard lipo sack is easily able to contain the fire. We tend to use somewhat more powerful batteries.

The 1/12th section does require buckets of sand to be in the pits at every meeting. Being indoors there is considerably more danger than most off road tracks. If a lipo catches fire it is covered in the sand to smother it then left until it burns itself out, so keeping the toxic smoke contained as well.

Why are motors homologated - what is the advantage in off road?

Because the Electric Board was asked to homologate motors by the BRCAs members, so the motors should be more or less equal in performance. Just because off road doesn't need motor limits doesn't mean other section don't either.

As off road have more power than grip, unlike most other classes, there isn't an advantage apart from making sure the motors are commercially available. If you don't think there's a need for it propose it and vote on it at the AGM.

Batteries - why are they homologated? For sure spec them in a hard case and 7.4v etc - but why do they need homologation.

To ensure we have a level playing field and to ensure the batteries meet international safety standards. Lipos submitted for homologation have to include proof they have passed safety tests. It also ensures they are commercially available, a free for all could mean we go back to manufacturer 'specials' for team drivers that you can't buy in the shops.

Why are lipo cells which are well known to sometimes swell slightly with normal use, I mean, fractions of a mm, homologated but still illegal?

Because there is a maximum size and the manufacturers should take that into consideration. Lets say a pack that swells 2mm is allowed this 'tolerance'. So, the manufacturer makes a new pack which includes this 2mm oversize tolerance in their pack. They get extra capacity in there, which means a higher average voltage for many on road classes. Then everyone else follows suit and we end up back where we started, just with packs now 2mm too big to fit in most cars.

Surely if you homologate something, it's legal - but it doesn't work that way.

That's Trinitys current defence over their D3.5 17.5T motors. ROAR has found it uses oversize wire which explains why it's the fastest motor in the class. Trinity is complaining because they managed to get it through homologation months ago but now it has been retested it's found to be illegal.

Same with lipos. Lets say you are running a class with a 4200mah capacity limit, and a manufacturer has a pack homologated. If the manufacturer then increases the size slightly while keeping the same label on it, you now have a pack that is going to outperform all other lipos in that class.

The manufacturers have a maximum size allowed and they should take that into consideration when designing the packs. The old nimh cells had a maximum size and they would still be within that size after swelling, until Intellect built their cells deliberately oversize and all the racers went out and bought them because they had a very slightly higher average voltage.

One of the few advantages some sponsored drivers may have these days is in the software on their ESC's. They will get the latest developments before anyone but this isn't regulated at all. One area that you could argue should be homologated but isn't - I wouldn't argue for it, but it shows how behind the times some of these things are.

Technically ESC software is regulated, there are very strict requirements on what ESCs can and cannot do in blinky mode. Orca were caught out with dodgy software and were given a blanket ban of ROAR races for six months.

I think there's a lot of daft things personally that need modernising. How can you possibly have a rule that states your 'open cage' buggy should be a realistic representation and have a driver figure..

Because the rule was written when we had the Hirobo Zerda, Mugen Bulldog and AYK Viper. An open cage buggy has no body at all, just an open cage.

but then you allow a cab forward shell? Yes - you can run a shell no possible scale humanoid would ever fit in that looks nothing like a buggy but more like a spaceship - and you can have painted opaque windows if you like.

That choice is down to the drivers creating the rules, every other class actually specifies clear windows. If you want to go scale then you would end up banning every buggy body available. It would be nicer if buggies looked more like the real thing, but you aren't going to get the drivers to vote for it.

Body shell holes - how can you say they need to be defined by the manufacturer -

At the AGM last year the rules were changed, there are now specific maximum sizes for holes for cooling. The manufacturer can make as big a cut line as you would want but the drivers voted to change it this year.

I'm in it for the love - rules, control tyres and fair racing are all good. I think things are well behind the times though. Having your wheel nuts slightly interfere with a size checking box makes ab-so-lutely no difference on the track but you win the worlds with that and you'd be disqualified. Silly.

Okay, lets allow a car with slightly longer axles to pass scrutineering. Then what is to stop another manufacturer making their buggy wider, because you can't argue that it's not allowed while allowing someone else to run with a slightly oversize car. If you want cars with wheel nuts catching in the box then propose and vote to increase the maximum width at the AGM. Then everyone will be shimming their wheels out to the new width.

[jimmy]

Terry - you can't read and you either agreed with me in your replies or misunderstood, or just went off on a tangent. You have absolutely no clue sir, no clue at all.

If someone wants to start racing where would you suggest they go, oOple or BRCA website for info? I know what I think, I know I'm a helpful considerate guy - and I also see outside the box that you're stuck in.

If you think I'm a wanker - call me a wanker - don't dick about. I call it like I see it - why you keep ranting on about 12th scale I've no idea. We don't overcharge cells in 10th off road, end of.
I think you're completely out of touch, not sure if I mentioned that, but you are.

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by jimmy

Terry - you can't read and you either agreed with me in your replies or misunderstood, or just went off on a tangent. You have absolutely no clue sir, no clue at all.

If someone wants to start racing where would you suggest they go, oOple or BRCA website for info? I know what I think, I know I'm a helpful considerate guy - and I also see outside the box that you're stuck in.

If you think I'm a wanker - call me a wanker - don't dick about. I call it like I see it - why you keep ranting on about 12th scale I've no idea. We don't overcharge cells in 10th off road, end of.
I think you're completely out of touch, not sure if I mentioned that, but you are.

My point is that your opinion is entirely focused on 1/10th off road. The Electric Board and the homologation lists were all created for the on road classes, and they will always be there.

If you have a problem with the motor and lipo rules and the EB lists in off road, then the solution is to propose and convince your fellow racers to vote to not use them at the AGM.

Complaining because you don't agree with the EB rules and want to change them isn't going to happen unless you can persuade all the other electric classes that use them to control their equipment isn't going to happen. All the motor and battery rules have been put there for the good of the racers who want to use the lists.

I have raced in most electric categories, both on and off road. Different classes have completely different needs and should be treated separately. So off road has got more power than grip, that's great. But there are many other classes that need to limit what motors and batteries are used, and need to try and keep a level playing field.

So off road doesn't overcharge their lipos because there is no need to. Fine, so therefore it's a rule that buggy racers would never break anyway. Getting every last bit of voltage is why we all bought IB4200s because they had less than a tenth of a volt higher average discharge voltage. Other classes with motor limits use bigger and bigger capacity lipos because again it gives a slightly higher average voltage during the race. In other classes it can make a big difference so you can't dismiss a general rule for all sections just because it wouldn't make a difference in off road. Deciding it's stupid just because buggy racers don't do it is deliberately ignoring every other electric class that is run. Go watch a touring car national and see how they will do everything to get every last fraction of a second out of their car. personally I think they all take it way too seriously considering we are just playing with toy cars for a hobby.

The voltage limit is also a nice simple way of protecting the BRCA from liability, you want to overcharge your cells then go ahead but the BRCA won't be helping you if you set fire to the hall you are in. If you are wanting changes to general rules you really want to think further afield than just off road, after all no one would be happy if the touring car boys were imposing rules on the off road sections. Being 'in touch' with what buggy racers think doesn't mean you are in touch with all other sections.

If you have a problem with any rule and the majority of racers in your section think the same then there is nothing stopping you changing it. That's the whole point of the AGM, if you or anyone else thinks a rule is stupid or unworkable there is nothing stopping anyone proposing a change and getting it voted in.

And if someone wanted to know the best place for advice to start racing I would always recommend going to their local club first. Then whether they are on Oople or Racechat they would get the same advice from me.

You are the one that wanted to open up a debate.

[cigbunt]

Terry you posts are very long and dry, some of your good/valid points may get lost in the noise of being boring ( not having a dig just saying)

saying that i don't think your points are not aligned to the average 1/10 racers thoughts and if its regulated by racers this its a bit of a contradiction.

i've never heard of any one trying to over change there cells in 1/10 if you want to go faster you just add boast on your ESC or use a faster motor, some one please correct me if i am wrong.

its sounds like each class should have its own tailored rules or exceptions,

rules are rules and there need to be rules but there ain't nothing wrong with challenging them.

[jimmy]

I was talking solely about 10th off road modified - not Stock in Germany, we don't really have that over here. It's almost completely mod.

I did not complain - I thrust my opinion out there and invited discussion. I have nothing to complain about since I never race in any sanctioned races. I either race at club level or some one-off event. I don't care what lipo or motor or chassis is legal or not for myself. It's my opinion that it's not needed for this class of racing, the one I'm most involved with.
There's nothing more fair that modified - once you restrict the power people cheat. I didn't realise how widespread it was but I had a long conversation with a nameless chap last night who said their stock TC series was almost 'STOCK' now, because everyone knows how to cheat to the same level. Silly.
I never understood stock - it's a good theory but people will always want to be MORE EQUAL.

This is the future of the hobby as a whole, not my demands! I couldn't give a chuff what any sanctioning body does - they can insist everyone buy a purcy or that everyone use an LRP 2.5, whatever they do that isn't good will hurt the sport, what they do that is good will help the sport.
In regards to my initial post - I was clearly referring to the sillyness of some rules (TC's must have loads) and outdated nature of others. You must agree that there was never a level playing field with older technology and in specific reference to electric off road 10th buggies, the technology has taken care of things in terms of fair racing.

Will you see someone go to a big sanctioned event with a £10 lipo? probably not - so why even have a list. The list doesn't apply to regional and club level unless the organisers choose to use them. So you're only talking about national-level really.
I know of a person who ran an entire national season on clearly non-legal cells and it was never picked up on. Was it an unfair advantage? no, he had the option to have free cells that were good but not homologated. Did he cheat? technically yes, does anyone care? probably not. Why? because everyone already knows it's about as fair as it gets.

I'm not speaking in anger or bitterness when I say homologation never did the job of making things equal - you can ask any racer, or indeed yourself - you know the answer. Yes - it might have stopped some sneaky advancements but at the end of the day, the top guys had better stuff. 'Team Packs' are what they called the best rejects.
Now everyone uses lipo's - they're all the same, I mean, too fast!

[DCM]

Originally Posted by jimmy

Just thought I'd open up a debate on these things and see what people think.

For all the classes of racing there are rules, some have homologated aspects and most have some scrutineering. Most of this is probably a good thing.

8th buggies have their tanks checked for capacity - but the only national I've ever been to, I was shocked to see that it ultimately came down to a divide between people who could run 10 minutes and those that couldn't - and therefore had to pit more often.

Things like ground effects and body height rules are sensible in touring cars - and I believe the bodies have to be marked these days. I have to question why they aren't forced to run actual touring car bodies but instead streamlined bathtubs that look nothing like a car I'd want to be seen in!

When it comes to electric racing - and particularly off-road where my personal interest mainly lays with (hey, I like it all tho), there's a limiting factor called skill.
10th buggy racers are more equal than ever before - despite, not because of, the scrutineering, rules and homologation. When you can always have more power and duration than you could possibly ever use, why homologate?

At BRCA off road 10th nationals the cars are weighed (doesn't everyone run much heavier than the rules anyway?) and put in a box to check dimensions. It's all good. These days the cells are checked for voltage above the norm - it was explained to me that people have been known to cheat by over-cooking their lipo's in some way, but clearly in off road, no one is ever going to do that, because it won't make a difference.
I think now they might claim it to be a safety issue - but standing there revving the car until the voltage drops would have been the same if the car had done a warmup lap anyway.

Lipo bags - are there guidelines for these? My lipo bag I can't see possibly stopping the devastating power of a lipo going off. Maybe that's something that actually should be homologated, and properly tested.

The most dangerous batteries in the entire universe as far as I'm concerned were the last generation of NiMh cells. I'd say these were less predictable and possibly more dangerous than a lipo cell - but there were no charging-in-sac rules for those. I personally witnessed a pack explode in a car that was being carried - it blew the car apart. I also saw a pack explode on someones table - luckly they weren't there, but some people got hit far away by metal from the huge explosion. Some how these were homologated!

So then my main puzzlement is:

Why are motors homologated - what is the advantage in off road?
They were homologated when we were all running brushed motors and it was NOT fair or equal in any way - team guys got motors wound for them, not off the shelf jobs that 'normal people' could buy. So it didn't work then and imho it's not even needed now because it's been made equal by progress.

Batteries - why are they homologated? For sure spec them in a hard case and 7.4v etc - but why do they need homologation.
Homologation for cells was utterly useless when we used nicad's and NiMh's because team guys got better cells than any 'factory team' cells normal folk could buy. The best cells I ever had were old knackered cells from a multiple national winner.
So, given the fact that homologation never made anything really 'fair' - and that technology has made off road about as fair as it gets..... why?

Why are lipo cells which are well known to sometimes swell slightly with normal use, I mean, fractions of a mm, homologated but still illegal? Technically I'd guess that there's plenty of drivers running homologated cells that brand new or well used are technically illegal. Surely if you homologate something, it's legal - but it doesn't work that way.
No one is hurting for run time, no one is hurting for speed or power - certainly it's sensible to express maximum sizes but these shouldn't be down to microns and drivers shouldn't have to endanger themselves by dremeling their volatile batteries until they meet the size requirements - even though they bought the cells that were on the approved list.

So - what good is homologation when homologated cells are illegal due to manufacturing tolerences. And why is it legal to weaken the case by filing it down to meet the size. Who is gaining an advantage, really.

One of the few advantages some sponsored drivers may have these days is in the software on their ESC's. They will get the latest developments before anyone but this isn't regulated at all. One area that you could argue should be homologated but isn't - I wouldn't argue for it, but it shows how behind the times some of these things are.

I think there's a lot of daft things personally that need modernising. How can you possibly have a rule that states your 'open cage' buggy should be a realistic representation and have a driver figure............ but then you allow a cab forward shell? Yes - you can run a shell no possible scale humanoid would ever fit in that looks nothing like a buggy but more like a spaceship - and you can have painted opaque windows if you like.
Hey - but don't forget that driver figure in your cage body that needs to be based upon genuine desert racing buggies... etc. Please bring photo evidence that this is based upon...

Body shell holes - how can you say they need to be defined by the manufacturer - if I buy a shell and modify it then I become the manufacturer. Same as if I'd backpoured the body, re-moulded it, made a fake website and declare that everwhere is a vent. Common sense works better - if it's outrageous and clearly dangerous or looks stupid then you can ban it on-site.

I'm in it for the love - rules, control tyres and fair racing are all good. I think things are well behind the times though. Having your wheel nuts slightly interfere with a size checking box makes ab-so-lutely no difference on the track but you win the worlds with that and you'd be disqualified. Silly.

Just my opinions really. I thought a sensible thread on these sort of regulations whether ROAR, IFMAR, EFRA or BRCA etc are worth discussion since I can't be the only one to think some of these things don't help the sport from a professional, and certainly hobbyist level.

Right, LiPo voltage, I can understand initially why they were doing it, was that quite a few of the first lot of LiPo chargers were not very accurate on their Voltage regulation and recording. But now they should all be fine, if you are found to be over V once you should be informed and warned, the 2nd time should be a penalty then, if it is a rule otherwise I don't understand the reasoning at a national for doing it in buggies, although in stock saloons then any advantage that is gained but dodgy practices should be jumped on.

LiPo sack, there are pro's and cons, the pro's are that a properly constructed LiPo sack is only there as a containment whilst you disconnect from charger etc. Cons, there are many, firstly unless they are almost airtight, pointless, you also can't see an early indicators of issue's and the big one is, who dictates if a LiPo sack is safe, I know that the manufacturer/distributor is responsible for any claims, but, if I were to buy a fire blanket it would have BS Kite marks and conform to ISO regulations, if I was a particularly fussy insurance assessor, I would be asking what these are constructed in accordance with. As for LiPo fires, only ones I have seen have been on the track. Most failures I have heard of whilst charging is user arror (wrong profile on charger).

I also agree, LiPo's are far FAR inherently safer than the last couple of generations of NiMH batteries, they were lethal and the only 'guidance' was to charge at 1C.

HOMOLOGATION

If you have rules for construction then you have to homologate, which is only ever a concern for you if you are running at a BRCA controlled event. Once you have got past the national series then surely it is up to the organisers whether they follow the list. There is nothing stopping anyone buying cheap as long as they don't wish to participate in a National (as the rules are to govern the national series and guidance for all else). But, if one governing body has homologated a product I don't see a reason why another body has to, so if a battery is ROAR approved or BRCA approved, they should be legal for use at sanctioned events world wide.

Now, the one confusion I have is that motors can be submitted at any time but batteries once a year, which kinda discourages getting them sorted. I do understand that when we were racing NiCD and NiMH's that we would have 6 packs and if someone brought out a bigger capacity cell then we would all really be forced to go buy them to keep up, but as Jimmy has said, nobody struggles now for duration, so I can't really see anyone jumping mid season because Team X has brought out a new battery.

I think, for the beginner, it can look all very much daunting and expensive to get into it (although I know for a fact, in relative terms, it is far FAR cheaper than when I first started in 1989).

I do understand the need for a BRCA and fully understand how it works etc, and as a club official, the only thing that interests me is the General Rules, as that is all we have to follow in the end. I think clubs have to decide as to how strict they are on the rest of the rules, to be honest. I won't turn someone away because their gear isn't on the list, as long as their car is safe and they fallow the general rules that is all I am interested in.

I do feel that when you create rules due to 'safety' then you do leave yourself wide open for a swift kick in the nuts. If I am charging in out hall in a secured LiPo sack, and I have a failure, the sack doesn't contain the fire and it damages the table, blind and wall then the hall claims against us, we pass it on to the BRCA who will then pass it on to the manufacturer/distributor of the sack. Now, the insurance company can go for two groups, the BRCA for stipulating a product HAS to be used but then provide no regulations as to how they are built and the distributor, which is where it can come really sticky, as they are making a safety product that conforms to no regs. It is a hornets nest of dilema's. I do think though that this rules has come about due to members not paying attention to, LiPo cells are in everything, phones, laptops, hand held gaming devices etc, and I have only seen one pic of a lipo fire from a mobile phone....

So Jimmy, I see and agree with most of it, my problem is these days, that due to me not doing nationals, most of it I couldn't give a toss about

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by Neil Skull

Mark,
What do you mean Orion is the biggest moan regarding swollen packs?

Originally Posted by Neil Skull

Mark,

Just because someone has a swollen or worn out damaged pack it does not mean they will get a FOC replacement. If it did we would be out of business.
Team Orion batteries are used by many people without problems, yes there are issues and we try to deal with them fairly.

Please stop attacking Orion unless you can prove no other brand has Battery failures?

i made one post, you than asked in an open forum to which i replied, if you dont want me to anser in public then dont ask in public!!!
i have not said other dont have issues either

[TARTMAN]

so.
we dont have to run to BRCA rules at large events etc, just arrange insurance. cool. job done.
Clubs, donmt have to run to BRCA rule, just arrange insurance, cool. job done.
BRCA is an option not a requirement............ great......

Lets look into arranging multiclub insurance that we can all sign up to without the need for the BRCA rules.

IF you want to run BRCA rules. they need to be set ones for each class, not an accross the board for all classes as that clearly is not working and to confusing and contradictive....

We need to encourage more newbies, young and old into the sport. The "rules" that are in place makes it confusing and often puts people off. I have had a recent issue at stotfold, regarding the 3 race before having to sign up to brca and they were a returning driver, being told they were not welcome there. The 3 race rule was decided that it would not count this time as a winter race and the driver was deemed not good enough etc etc, This is NOT the attitude to have and the BRCA rule in place was decided it was not applicable to suit the club that day. Discusting attitude, if the BRCA did not have this "power" then the driver would have been in heat one, like any other new/learning driver and we would have made allowances for them, EVERY LAST ONE OF US STARTED THE SAME DAMN WAY! So the BRCA ruling should not have any say in the new drivers etc, but it did. I do not agree with it.
This instance soured me to the BRCA rules somewhat, and it seems the brca and its "racer" reps, have lost there way somewhat. IN MY OPINION ONLY.
The rules that are enforced by the brca are not representative of the racer community as a whole. not even in the slightest.

The comments about come and vote etc etc, Change the rules etc. unless there is an online/postal vote then it wont happen or change. Regarding the comments about doing it at the time on the day etc, rubbish, the rules are made, written down and appear as hard and fast rules. SO. why can those rules be put to a vote, online, with options on the important/large ones regarding motors, lists, esc's, lipos sacks, 3 race rule, events/sactioned etc etc.... Its because the BRCA have had it the same way for decades and dont want to change.

I for one would like a more open and honest BRCA that allows people from all over the UK to be involved in the "whos in and whos out" vote, as well as an online vote to the "RULES" mentioned.

All clubs should have an open door policy no matter who they are to encourage new/returning drivers and what people are alowed to race etc, Its seems to be all politics and hiding behind rules and "blind/secretive" voting.
Debate continues!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!