Legalise Lipos

[SHY]

If there's an international limit of 5000 mAh as to sending LiPo battries on a plane, then that's a good argument. Someone better find out!

I've heard that in essense you're not really allowed to send LiPo batteries with air freight at all (ground shipping only). Some webshops cannot sell to other countries due to this. Also this has to be investigated thoroughly.

In practise I can't really see the airlines opening up your luggage and checking the mAh rating... I think this is a VERY theoretical problem if any. (Hand luggage would be worse of course).

Does this mean laptops will never come with batteries with more than 5000 mAh???

An argument against size restrictions is that manufacturers won't try to make thinner cases, wires, smaller solder tabs etc... to try and shrink'em... safety first!

And as to size restrictions for NiMH cells... how often have you seen a stickpack being dismantled and measured? Tabs soldered off so you can accurately measure the length? With metal calipers shorting the cell... It's way over complicated if you ask me... Not to forget... if the text on the shrinkwrap is written in the wrong colour, wrong colour on the ring etc... they're not legal... hence you're always insecure when ordering new cells...

At least for OR... why do we need any battery rules nowadays at all? Nobody's dumping... nobody can go faster with more power...

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by SHY

If there's an international limit of 5000 mAh as to sending LiPo battries on a plane, then that's a good argument. Someone better find out!

I've heard that in essense you're not really allowed to send LiPo batteries with air freight at all (ground shipping only). Some webshops cannot sell to other countries due to this. Also this has to be investigated thoroughly.

In practise I can't really see the airlines opening up your luggage and checking the mAh rating... I think this is a VERY theoretical problem if any. (Hand luggage would be worse of course).

Does this mean laptops will never come with batteries with more than 5000 mAh???

An argument against size restrictions is that manufacturers won't try to make thinner cases, wires, smaller solder tabs etc... to try and shrink'em... safety first!

you can take lipo on a plane i took some to belgiun in my case and hand luggage just declared em up front

[David Church]

So if the 5000 mAh is true, why have LRP just come out with 5100 mAh???
Seems very silly eh???

[SHY]

Never a Toyota Prius on a cargo plane then...

[David Church]

Originally Posted by SHY

Never a Toyota Prius on a cargo plane then...

yeah they are ok, they have Nicad batteries!!!!!

[Chrislong]

There are loopholes for cells contained in a device - such as laptop batteries, and then loopholes for spare batteries carried for that device. Chances are a passenger would never ever get stopped by a customs official to challenge this anyway, from experience the customs officials for passengers don't know what they're looking for except the obvious - because there is so many rules, by the time they;ve checked them the passenger has long gone. Whereas for cargo they have more time to check facts (and its automated too).

For example, if I was to ship a shipment of 100'000pcs of a Lithium button cell (which I do), I have to do dangerous goods paper work, pack in special cartons, include relevant UN paperwork etc. But if those cells go through a process and are fitted into, say, a watch. Then for me to then ship 100'000 watches is a standard shipment, easy.

The reason for the size limits is that Lipo and Nimh need to be on a level playing field. Nimhs have a cell size to comply with and when they didn't the door shut on them - remember the IB38's? So Lipo needs similar goal posts, granted the packs are very different, but for fairness with our demands to manufacturer if not any other reason, we need a dimension rule.

It'll all work out for the best.

[SHY]

I've done some googling... it's much, much worse...

Firstly, the rules vary from airline to airline. The ministry of transportation in the US stated that you may only carry 3 batteries, they must be in the handluggage, in transparent bags...

http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html

IMHO I think this is something the manufacturers should deal with. I cannot see how EFRA can be expected to be informed as to all european countries and all the airline policies... It's too much work and too complicated.

Keep in mind that in theory you're not even allowed to put any oils etc. in your luggage... if you want to fly your gear to a race you're kinda forced to bend the rules slightly anyway...

Originally Posted by Chrislong

The reason for the size limits is that Lipo and Nimh need to be on a level playing field. Nimhs have a cell size to comply with and when they didn't the door shut on them - remember the IB38's? So Lipo needs similar goal posts, granted the packs are very different, but for fairness with our demands to manufacturer if not any other reason, we need a dimension rule.

Chris, the rest of your post is very interesting! But as for the quoted section here I'm afraid I cannot see the point. Please explain further!

I know NiMH sizes "got out of control"... but isn't that EFRAs homologation process that failed? And as to the recent battery explosions - wouldn't that have been avoided if they were "stess tested" in a laboratory? (like ROAR does for LiPo)

As to LiPo it's simply that the cells itself are a given size. And with safe hardcasing etc. a saddle cannot be made smaller... How "fair" would it be to pull the plug on manufactuers of saddle pack cars?

And don't tell me to wait patiently! This is a discussion forum!

@David: http://www.toyota.com/html/dyncon/20...l/battery.html (future ones then! )

[Chrislong]

The rules never changed, but the cells got bigger. With size comes added punch, added capacity..... added explosions?! So they were made to comply with the rules, therefore we got many new brands on the market for this years EB list.

With Lipo, they need to have similar goalposts. Obviously it goes without saying but I will, Lipo is not the same shape, but even so a dimension needs to be set for manufacturers to work within otherwise the floodgates are left open - whereas Nimhs which Lipo's are competing against on the track, still have the same strict rules.

What is also different to ever before, is Lipo hit the market and has become popular before any EB list has been released, so many members/competitors now have packs they expect to be allowed to use - which is fair enough. But now the BRCA/EB are being asked indirectly "Make the rules fit what we already have".

This wouldn't be such a big deal if the lifespan of a Lipo pack was as short as a Nimh pack, but it isn't. Even if the rules make your packs illegal, you'll still have to buy less, spend less for 1st April than you would buying cells. I know many of us spent a lot of money 1st April 2008. Even if my current packs don't fall within the rules, i'll only need 1 pack (2 packs incase of failure maximum) if I need to purchase something for the rules come 1st April.

The BRCA & EB represent us well, and are working toward achieving what is ideal. If that does not happen then we'll get the best compromise, but personally I am confident they will represent all of our best interests and id like not for that to be questioned - we need to show appreciation for these people. Please.

Chris

[David Church]

Originally Posted by Chrislong

The rules never changed, but the cells got bigger. With size comes added punch, added capacity..... added explosions?! So they were made to comply with the rules, therefore we got many new brands on the market for this years EB list.

With Lipo, they need to have similar goalposts. Obviously it goes without saying but I will, Lipo is not the same shape, but even so a dimension needs to be set for manufacturers to work within otherwise the floodgates are left open - whereas Nimhs which Lipo's are competing against on the track, still have the same strict rules.

What is also different to ever before, is Lipo hit the market and has become popular before any EB list has been released, so many members/competitors now have packs they expect to be allowed to use - which is fair enough. But now the BRCA/EB are being asked indirectly "Make the rules fit what we already have".

This wouldn't be such a big deal if the lifespan of a Lipo pack was as short as a Nimh pack, but it isn't. Even if the rules make your packs illegal, you'll still have to buy less, spend less for 1st April than you would buying cells. I know many of us spent a lot of money 1st April 2008. Even if my current packs don't fall within the rules, i'll only need 1 pack (2 packs incase of failure maximum) if I need to purchase something for the rules come 1st April.

The BRCA & EB represent us well, and are working toward achieving what is ideal. If that does not happen then we'll get the best compromise, but personally I am confident they will represent all of our best interests and id like not for that to be questioned - we need to show appreciation for these people. Please.

Chris

VERY WELL SAID!!!!

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by Chrislong

What is also different to ever before, is Lipo hit the market and has become popular before any EB list has been released, so many members/competitors now have packs they expect to be allowed to use - which is fair enough. But now the BRCA/EB are being asked indirectly "Make the rules fit what we already have".


Chris

was that not the case with brushless tho?

[Chrislong]

Im talking power supply Mark.

[SHY]

Originally Posted by David Church

VERY WELL SAID!!!!

I'll have to agree with that!

[_sleigh_]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

was that not the case with brushless tho?

Not from my understanding no. I thought the manufacturers all got together and knocked out a set of specifications for BL motors. I appreciate those specs might have had a few revisions in the early stages, but manufacturers all knew what to work to (that is if they wanted the motor to be legal).

[SHY]

I see from the EFRA papers that both LiPo proposals are put under the general electric meeting, not under the 1:10 OR meeting.

Anyone know why? Did PW say anything about this at your BRCA AGM?

An important point was for this to be voted for ONLY in the 1:10 OR section. If this has to be passed for other electric classes as well, then chances are that it won't pass...

If those running touring cars or 1:12 want LiPos, then they'd better propose it themselves.

>> one proposal for each class!

[terry.sc]

There are good reasons for having maximum dimensions for lipos. Right now the manufacturers make lipo packs for everything including sanctioned racing so they aren't too worried about making race legal cells to race legal dimensions.

Now lets say Orion brought out a new pack using two of the platinum 20C 5000mah packs inside one case, in parallel so it's still 7.4v. You now have a 10000mah 40C pack that's 46mm high, but if there's no dimension regulations it would be perfectly legal for racing.

There's also the practical requirement of making packs that fit the cars. Lets say Orion make a saddle pack to a higher spec than the Trakpower one, but with no dimension limits it's 10mm longer. If it becomes the pack to have you are then limited to running cars that the bigger pack will fit in.

As for

And as to size restrictions for NiMH cells... how often have you seen a stickpack being dismantled and measured? Tabs soldered off so you can accurately measure the length? With metal calipers shorting the cell... It's way over complicated if you ask me...

Have a word with Marc Reinhard. He was disqualified from one of the finals he won at the touring car Euro champs because one of the cells in his car was oversize when it was measured after the race. You can buy calipers in other materials than steel, designed specifically for use in the electrical industry.

Whatever happens, the lipo packs that are being used now will still be able to be used at the same tracks.

[Chrislong]

Yes this was mentioned. The EB list will be a universal list for all classes.

There is a chance the 12th guys may choose to run single lipo's, if not now then next time round. I think we're leading the way, but in a way where others can choose to jump on the same 'bandwagon'.

It can get through this way, but the individual sections need to open there doors to it with the section rules. EG. the wording of the BRCA 1/10th off-road rule changing to maximum nominal voltage of 7.4v opens its doors to it.

[SHY]

If you read the proposal I've made, you can see that it gives you the possibility to run with only 3,7 volt (one cell) if you like.

Still, I don't think 1:12 is ready yet. Only actual thing I've heard is that the cars handled poorly with the low weight.

Touring should be kinda ok... but the 5 cells (6 volt) thing is down the drain then... and they would suffer overheating problems again...

>> Complex!!! For 1:10 OR exclusively it's not!

This is my original wording in the proposal:

Amended:
Appendix 3, rule 3.3
1/10 Off-Road cars will be driven by a maximum of six cells. EFRA approved Lithium Polymer batteries may be used as an option for this class. See Appendix 10 for specifications.

NEW:
Appendix 10
LITHIUM POLYMER BATTERIES (LiPo) - SPECIFICATIONS, TESTING AND APPROVAL


And they've simply changed it to "3.11"... fishy!!! They should have just kept it as it was, and made an EFRA executive proposal for all classes in addition if they liked. Or better: one for each class.

I hope they have enough coffee at that electrical meeting...

[Chrislong]

If you can find the passed rule from the BRCA, this would be more suitable for Efra I think.

As it allows further new technologies - it doesn;t identify any cell type or form. Just states maximum voltage, I think this is most suitable.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

was that not the case with brushless tho?

Originally Posted by _sleigh_

Not from my understanding no. I thought the manufacturers all got together and knocked out a set of specifications for BL motors. I appreciate those specs might have had a few revisions in the early stages, but manufacturers all knew what to work to (that is if they wanted the motor to be legal).

Originally Posted by Chrislong

Im talking power supply Mark.

chris it was a question, hence the ?

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by terry.sc

There are good reasons for having maximum dimensions for lipos. Right now the manufacturers make lipo packs for everything including sanctioned racing so they aren't too worried about making race legal cells to race legal dimensions.

Now lets say Orion brought out a new pack using two of the platinum 20C 5000mah packs inside one case, in parallel so it's still 7.4v. You now have a 10000mah 40C pack that's 46mm high, but if there's no dimension regulations it would be perfectly legal for racing.

There's also the practical requirement of making packs that fit the cars. Lets say Orion make a saddle pack to a higher spec than the Trakpower one, but with no dimension limits it's 10mm longer. If it becomes the pack to have you are then limited to running cars that the bigger pack will fit in.

As for Have a word with Marc Reinhard. He was disqualified from one of the finals he won at the touring car Euro champs because one of the cells in his car was oversize when it was measured after the race. You can buy calipers in other materials than steel, designed specifically for use in the electrical industry.

Whatever happens, the lipo packs that are being used now will still be able to be used at the same tracks.

dont think the c rating would alter would it? as in 20 to 40
is would still be 20 c but times 10000