When is a 2wd not a 2wd

[RickRick]

i've run my sx3 with no front drive in 4wd class after breaking the front belt and it wasn't much different, i did still have the diff and shafts in though.

either way, maybe if a new rule is required it should be for 2wd only transmision parts required to drive the rear wheels are allowed.
that should rule out leaving diffs in the front, propshafts or belts ect but allow the gearbox housing (empty) to still be fitted at the front for mounting reasons.

[njc11]

Originally Posted by bigred5765

Ive said no as I think it gives the driver more time to get the same car dialed in better for Sunday,

Good point Carl.... no one going to comment on this?

me personally would love to see 2wd as rear motor only... so much more fun to drive

We also want more Aire Valley style tracks back in the UK..

[Lee Martin]

Don't ban the 4wd/2wd cars............just ban astroturf.....

[Neil Skull]

Nice try Lee, I like the idea Ban Astroturf but you would also have to ban the English weather. If you look back at nationals this year! how many would have even been run if they was no on Astro?? I much prefer to see racing on dirt with less grip as its more of a Spectator sport.

I think the rules are clear and if people want to run 4wd as 2wd why not as long as Scrutineering are checking for it I cant see a problem. I guess some of the manufacturers and sponsors would not be happy though.
The FWD 2wd drive rule should be removed so we can see some real mix of cars on the track, 4wd/2wd as well as 2wd Mid motor and 2wd rear motor and 2wd front motor! sounds like a fun mix to me!!!

[bigred5765]

I think its a two part thing
1 is running the same car both days for me is a no no especially just removing the drive shafts,
2 car's that were 4wd and are now made as a 2wd IE db1 are a 2wd as it would involve a full rebuild to make it 4wd again
run 2wd cars on 2wd days and 4wd on 4wd drive days
just removing the front drive shafts does not make a 2wd IMHO

[MattW]

Carl - Removing the front driveshafts does make it a 2WD - the clue is in the title "2 Wheel Drive". If only 2 wheels are driven, then that's exactly what it is as the rules stand right now. If you don't want to allow that, then the rules need a re-write - and for me, for that to work, it would need to ban the TM2 and DB1, and I don't believe this is the right thing to do at all.

All IMHO of course, I'm only a part time off road driver these days so I don't really care all that much.

[FrogPrince82]

Originally Posted by FrogPrince82

I think part of the issue is that multiple cars are able to be used on race day by the same driver.

RC Racing is the only form of racing I've been involved in where I have, for arguement's sake, 5 races at a meeting and I can use 5 different cars, 1 for each race!

Everywhere else I could make changes to components, but the actual chassis/engine has to remain the same once I've completed scrutineering (with possible dispensation for extenuating circumstances).

Maybe if you had to stick to the same car for the whole meeting, we wouldn't see people use a 2wd specific for 2 qualifiers, then a 4wd hybrid for another 2, then whichever they prefered in the final. You should enter a car for the meeting and stick with it. Having 2,3,4 different cars already to go in different configurations for different conditions isn't talent, it's cash/ manufacture backing.

Originally Posted by DaveG28

I actually quite like the single chassis rule, like euro's and worlds...make them choose before 1st practice too!

Originally Posted by Gaz_Stanton

Does that also count as unfair practice for the 4wd event? What about the 'track not open 7 days before a National' rule? If the 4wd event was on the Sunday, were these drivers running 4wds not contravening that rule by running the same car on the Saturday?

EDIT: No it does not.
The rule simply states that -- "The track cannot be used (for any purpose) in the seven days prior to a National event".
The "National event" starts on the Sat. and is considered as a "Two Day Event".

Same with the Euros too. The eventual winner had already done 15+ races around the same track with a 4wd chassis before everyone else had got theirs out of the suitcase...

Maybe if only one chassis/motor had to be declared and allowed to be run by each driver for a day's racing per class, then you could also maybe say that it couldn't be the same chassis/motor used the following day in another class. Maybe this would stop people running their converted 4wd in 2wd to get more practice/set-up, and visa versa?

[bigred5765]

I no the facts Matt
but the tm2 and db1 have no front diff.all the people running 4wd as 2wd at the weekend left in the front diffs and drive belt/shaft to it, theres a big difference in doing that,plus running the same car both days and being able to just add drive shafts for Sunday is a large advantage as the cars already been set up for that track,and for the people that are going to say what about running a proper 2wd on Saturday and Sunday, there is a even bigger disadvantage than the other way around,

[Hog]

Hasn't this got a bit off track?

Surely the issue isn't whether you use the same chassis - more that you can use the same chassis with some of the transmission still connected to the non-driven wheels to gain an advantage?

Simple answer - yes you can use a 4wd chassis in the 2wd class - but you must remove not only the driveshafts but any means of driving the differential on the non-driven wheels. You can leave the diff in if you like as it's only the same as having ballast in a traditional 2wd car up front - but you're not allowed to send drive to the diff.

Or is that too simple?

[Si Coe]

I've seen a B44.1 converted to a 2wd with a B4 front end fitted. The whole point of the conversion was it was a minor matter to refit the B44.1 front end and return to a 4wd.
Now this conversion would pass the no front gearbox test, but is still using 70% the same car in both classes.

[millzy]

Originally Posted by Lee Martin

Don't ban the 4wd/2wd cars............just ban astroturf.....

But there is only one grass track in the uk that can hold up to a National weekend of cars each day.......apparently

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by bigred5765

I think its a two part thing
1 is running the same car both days for me is a no no especially just removing the drive shafts,
2 car's that were 4wd and are now made as a 2wd IE db1 are a 2wd as it would involve a full rebuild to make it 4wd again
run 2wd cars on 2wd days and 4wd on 4wd drive days
just removing the front drive shafts does not make a 2wd IMHO

Originally Posted by MattW

Carl - Removing the front driveshafts does make it a 2WD - the clue is in the title "2 Wheel Drive". If only 2 wheels are driven, then that's exactly what it is as the rules stand right now. If you don't want to allow that, then the rules need a re-write - and for me, for that to work, it would need to ban the TM2 and DB1, and I don't believe this is the right thing to do at all.

All IMHO of course, I'm only a part time off road driver these days so I don't really care all that much.

Easy 2wd only allowed one gearbox/housing.

[john333]

In my opinion the TM2 isn't a converted 4wd anyway. Yes it uses the rear mouldings etc of a T4, but the chassis is bespoke to the tm2 and the motor mount is in a completely different position. You certainly can't just stick a front drivetrain in it.

Take the front driveshafts out of a T4 and it still won't look anything like a TM2.

Can't deny it's nice to only have to carry a few spares as there is a good crossover of the same parts though!

[Chalkie]

Originally Posted by Lee Martin

Don't ban the 4wd/2wd cars............just ban astroturf.....

Post of the thread for me

[WHITTLER555]

Originally Posted by bigred5765

I no the facts Matt
but the tm2 and db1 have no front diff.all the people running 4wd as 2wd at the weekend left in the front diffs and drive belt/shaft to it, theres a big difference in doing that,plus running the same car both days and being able to just add drive shafts for Sunday is a large advantage as the cars already been set up for that track,and for the people that are going to say what about running a proper 2wd on Saturday and Sunday, there is a even bigger disadvantage than the other way around,

Sorry Carl, but not ALL the drivers left the front diffs in, because of the unique way the DEX410 is constructed its very simple to remove all the front drive train in one piece and then the two drive shafts. And that is the way the Durango drivers ran. I think you will find it was the Schumacher drivers in some cases that left the front diffs in.

So basically the DEX410 was a 2wd much the same as a TM2, there was just an empty front bulkhead exactly like most 2wd cars. Nothing was rotating and the drivetrain looked very much like a TM2 with the body off.

[Sabesto]

Originally Posted by bigred5765

I no the facts Matt
but the tm2 and db1 have no front diff.all the people running 4wd as 2wd at the weekend left in the front diffs and drive belt/shaft to it, theres a big difference in doing that,plus running the same car both days and being able to just add drive shafts for Sunday is a large advantage as the cars already been set up for that track,and for the people that are going to say what about running a proper 2wd on Saturday and Sunday, there is a even bigger disadvantage than the other way around,

Nathan Waters ran his 410 without front diff and made the A final, so as far as I can see its completely 2wd, how could you ban that?
Most schumacher guys didn't remove the diff for the reason that its a bit of a pain to remove the front belt I believe, especially as they would need to put it back in for the following day! Certainly 2 guys I know haven't even tried it with the diff removed.
As for running the same car 2 days in a row, many Schumacher drivers changed the rear shocks from rear to the front of the wishbone for 4wd and of course added 2 driveshafts! Again how could you word it, to ban this? As then people running a DB1 couldn't use a Lazer the following day as half the car is the same, where would you draw the line?
To me it's completely fine!! 2wd is 2 driven wheels, 4wd is 4 driven wheels. Why over complicate it??

[bigred5765]

[QUOTE=WHITTLER555;793109]Sorry Carl, but not ALL the drivers left the front diffs in, because of the unique way the DEX410 is constructed its very simple to remove all the front drive train in one piece and then the two drive shafts. And that is the way the Durango drivers ran. I think you will find it was the Schumacher drivers in some cases that left the front diffs in.
Sorry damo your a good lad I know

Originally Posted by mark christopher

Easy 2wd only allowed one dearbox/housing.

my point exactly

Originally Posted by Sabesto

Nathan Waters ran his 410 without front diff and made the A final, so as far as I can see its completely 2wd, how could you ban that?
Most schumacher guys didn't remove the diff for the reason that its a bit of a pain to remove the front belt I believe, especially as they would need to put it back in for the following day! Certainly 2 guys I know haven't even tried it with the diff removed.
As for running the same car 2 days in a row, many Schumacher drivers changed the rear shocks from rear to the front of the wishbone for 4wd and of course added 2 driveshafts! Again how could you word it, to ban this? As then people running a DB1 couldn't use a Lazer the following day as half the car is the same, where would you draw the line?
To me it's completely fine!! 2wd is 2 driven wheels, 4wd is 4 driven wheels. Why over complicate it??

still don't agree with using same car on both days in two formats

[Lee Martin]

Taking Carls argument further.... say you ban the use of the 'same' car both days... how far do you go? Many 2wd and 4wd cars from the same manufacturer use the same parts on each car. Arms, hubs, rear end structures, geometry....

So could this also be cheating? As you are using the same 'parts' both days?
How far do you take it?
I think put simply, if 2 wheels are driven, its 2wd.

I dunno really how much more you can say or do about it.

I understand why its happening though. As over years and years when racing on standard surfaces, generally development drivers strive for ways to add more grip and steering to '2wd' cars. When we set these cars down on bumpy mega Velcro tracks it makes them extremely nervous and hard to drive. The mid motor trend was the first progression to cure this.
As for 4wd, its not likely that developers have gone to the same extents in search for grip, as obviously its 4wd originally. So this leads me to believe that our current range of 2wd cars on high grip are not suited and have also never been developed for this, thus making the 4wd/2wd cars feel easier to drive.
The DB1 showed that this could be the case at Silverstone last year and to be honest, the TMC2 thing has really showed that a simple redesign can make a competitive car when the conditions are right.

This is just an unfortunate stepping stone to where the future is for this type of racing condition I think.

[Sabesto]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

Easy 2wd only allowed one dearbox/housing.

Easier said then done! How do you define it? A gearbox is something that coverts power/torque. How is it converting it, if its got nothing attached? It's also not a diff if its not providing the action!
More to the point why would you want to define it in the rules? keep the rules simple and let people/companies innovate.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by Sabesto

Easier said then done! How do you define it? A gearbox is something that coverts power/torque. How is it converting it, if its got nothing attached? It's also not a diff if its not providing the action!
More to the point why would you want to define it in the rules? keep the rules simple and let people/companies innovate.

Was making comment re the two posts I quoted.....

To you easy

2wd may only have one driven axle, no other gearbox or housing designed to carry gears or a differential will be permitted