1 or 2 week ban on oil based additive

[J'MM'N]

Turning the carpet over is certainly not an option, cleaning it would possibly help on appearance, but probably do nothing on extending its life.

The condition of the carpet itself is due to using water and oil based additives together. We all know what happens when we add these two together and this along with the foam and rubber particles is what has made the carpet so rank looking.

As to the wear and damage of the carpet itself, the additives aren't really the cause but the continuous use of racing on it. I'm guessing the carpet is probably nearing 15-20 years old and any carpet with week in, week out racing for that period of time would have similar amounts of wear if you used an additive or not.

Additives are an important thing, not only in grip but probably more so in getting the balance of the car right and this is probably more so in 1/12 pan cars of which we don't have many at the club. But with the amount of different sauces already soaked into the carpet then this probably doesn't bear much weight, as anyone running additive on a GT12 will notice after a couple of minutes into the race, that the cars handling changes due to all the sauce you pick up.

If one class is to use an additive, then it makes little difference if both classes use it and the answer is that you only use certain additives. Perhaps the club needs to decide on two or three makes of similar substance and only allow those, LRP/Nosram are the same. Banning additive for one class only, is not going to stop them putting it on before they get to the club, or applying other substances like lighter fluid.

So the answer long term is probably to use only certain additives chosen by the club or none at all. And as to the carpet I think it probably has a few years left in it, but it may well be worth thinking ahead in funding for the future.

As to the original subject of not using any additive on the track for a few weeks and see if it helps clean it, I'm all for experimenting and yes I think its worth a try.

Perhaps we should apply "Shake and Vac" to our tyres before each race and it'll save Shane cleaning

[RogerM]

No objection but how would you police this?

[Gunter]

Carpet was new for the new venue (I think) so is only around 5 years old.

Up until prop 6/12 months ago the carpet was hardly dis-coloured and totally fine it's just since having 25/35 gt12 soaked in oil additive that's caused the problem and with having such a small track doing over 30/35laps a race and 4 heats of gt12 and 3 rounds a night that's alot of laps.

Possibly the mixture isn't helping but personally with how much additive is transferred off rubber tyres to the carpet I don't see that being much of a contributing factor ALONGS no1 uses oil additives on TC's. running lrp on foam I not sure works very well and would just lay more additive into the carpet so I think. foams-total additive ban and rubber-water based only.

Policing would be easy with foams as you can feel it on them easily before the race but do we want to get into that? Could we not just have a general agreement? If not then I think someone could just feel the foams before anyone goes on track

[LongRat]

For the sake of the experiment I think there is no need for any policing. And it's pretty straightforward to see anyone using it if they do.

[RCMadShane]

Still along way to go but an idea is to only allow the following adatives:..

LRP 2
Nosram
Jack the Gripper TC2

All are water based..

Let me know what you think

[ChrissieL]

I'm just for a total ban of additive for gt12

[Gunter]

For a few weeks i think we should go for a total ban to really try and get soem additive out of the carpet, but in the long run as others have said that might not be very easy as if someone is struggling they will just slap on abit of additive and jobs done and without having someone to check tyres before every run no1 will know.

Allowing specific types of additive that will help the carpet clean up is easier to police with spot checks if really required.

Apparently running just the additives above would really improve the carpet and stop the problem we are having but i do think we need to try without anything for a week or two to fast-track the carpet cleaning as it is abit soaked atm.

[Markygia]

Honestly, we cannot ban additives on TC. I have huge objections to that.
My whole proposal of a ban was a) for oil based, and;
b) not if anyone had strong objections

Anyhow, it sounds like the general consensus is that everyone is happy to ban oil based additives.

I suggest we just have a gentlemans agreement. We dont need to police it.

If anybody wants to 'cheat' and use additive when they've agreed not to, I cant see it happening but if anyone did continue to use the stuff then its quite morally low and not beneficial to the club. Let them do it if they clearly feel that strongly they have to use additive. But none-the-less, the fact that everyone else isnt using additive would mean the carpet should still benefit and hopefully return to normal.

I dont even think anyone would have much of an advantage by using additive when others arent. Like eveyone says, we've all tried it/ regularly go without anyway and so it shouldnt make a great deal of difference.

Also, happy to limit additives to brands that Shane has proposed.
I gotta admit i havent heard of one of them - but I'm sure it'll be cool.

I still have a lot of CS left - it doesnt last long anyway but if we all still have some left we could either set a date for a perm ban on oil additives (so gives people a chance to finish off their current supplies) or we just save the oil additives for other venues - i know i could probably use mine somewhere else (like maybe chippenham next year) - not sure if this applies to everyone though?

[RCMadShane]

We have to be reminded that very few of our members actually visit this forum so although I can try and catch people on Friday it may not get everyone…

As things stand the committee are happy to support a 2 week 100% ban on Additive which should also give us time to find the way forward.. Those who use this forum need to try an contact known members and cascade the information as far as possible so as not to shock people on Friday..

[Gunter]

This isnt for TC aswell is it?

Just ban on additive for them sponge tyre cars

[ChrissieL]

Originally Posted by Gunter

This isnt for TC aswell is it?

Just ban on additive for them sponge tyre cars

I hope not for TC!

[Markygia]

To clarify, this does not apply for TC (thank you shane!)

100% ban on use of addtive for stox. - I think this shoud be okay with everyone at the club as I dont think anyone who races stox minds. Certainly, in tems of a percentage, 100% of the stox users on this forum agree with a short trial ban.

And, from what I can tell, 100% of TC users agree we canot race TC without LRP/Nosram additive.

Thanks all

[Gunter]

100% ban for TC aswell apparently

[ChrissieL]

Originally Posted by Gunter

100% ban for TC aswell apparently

oh lordy lord - WTB Carpet Dragons....or not bother with the tc

[Markygia]

Okay new question?

what would all the members of this club prefer?

a) a club that listens to its members

b) a club that ignores the thoughts of its members and dictates to them!

Shane - I would seriously reconsider if you are suggesting we ban additive from TC too!

I think you need to remember this is not a business in which you are 100% share holder.

This is a club in which people choose to support and attend for thier enjoyment.

Sorry - strong words but I cannot believe after everyones post you would ignore and try an ultimate ban on additive - apologies if this isnt your call I'm just going on the evidence I have to hand.

I started this post to see if other users thought the same as me, and then if so we could act. And at every opportunity I said a decision should only be reached if its shared decision.

What is now apparently being suggested is very frustarting for me as it contradicts everything I have partioned for. What a waste of my time.

Personally, I feel TC cannot operate without additive - this view is shared by every other TC driver.

However, Stox we do not need additive. again a view shared.

Therefore, it is not unreasonable to ask Stox users not to use additive. BUT IT IS unreasonable to TELL TC users they have to go without.

As Gunter has said, years of TC use with additive hasnt caused the damage, the stox additive has. Therefore, for now I suggest only placing the burden of the ban on the Stox and see how that goes.

I'm not saying never ban addtive for TC - as if everyon agreed the track ultimately needed it then we'd all agree to ban TC additive too. BUt for now, lets see how the non-use of oil based additive does to the track.

Again, why act drastically and anger members when this is supposed to be for fun - you have the committment of others (stox users) thanks to the way I approached the subject - lets not exploit this and ban ALL additive use (yet)!

[Markygia]

Perhaps there has been some mis-communication issues...

"As things stand the committee are happy to support a 2 week 100% ban"

I (nor anybody else) has requested the 'support of a 2 week 100% ban' from the committee- so where has this come from?

We have asked for a gentlemans agreement that stox users stop using CS additive to SEE what this does for the carpet.

Who's in the Commmittee anyhow?

[J'MM'N]

I think at this time it's still in experimental mode and because this forum doesn't get to all the members, that we can't lay down a 100% ban of additives on either TC or Stox from this Friday, we don't want to be upsetting people on the night.

I think come Friday night it needs to be put across to the members what has been discussed here and that we would like to try this experiment. Of which we would Prefer members to try racing without additives for a couple of weeks. As this is only an experiment we don't want to alienate members that are against the idea, but looking at the feedback from this thread, I feel most will be happy to follow suit.

Also remember this is only an experiment and although some Stox drivers have found the track drivable without additive. This may not be the case a few weeks down the road and if car control becomes questioned and accidents start to rise, then we would need to rethink.

An ideal situation would be to see a total ban as the carpet is full of additive of which the foams will be picking up along with any fresh that is been put down. But I think this is impossible to enforce on such short notice.

Please note I'm putting this across as a Stox racer and not a TC driver and I think most Stox drivers will be willing to give it a try.

Markygia has put his concerns across for TC, which brings it's own issues running rubber tyres and I quite understand and don't have an answer for this, sorry. Also what is the position with pan cars, I know there are only a couple but they should be able to have their say as well.

[ChrissieL]

I would probably stop racing my Touring Car if not allowed to used additive. Stox, not a problem. TC needs the additive (and as previously mentioned doesnt seem to be the main problem). I could definately see a rise in TC breakages, incidents and the abuse of tyres. All good - if you're a RC shop.

However, I won't accept that risk and rather park it up than race.

[Markygia]

Completely agree with all of that.

If the ban is not working we should re-assess. It should be an experiment and a work- in process. i'm thinking it would be wise to not set in stone and specific regulations, just merely ask stox users to not use additive this friday and see what that does to the track. Bsed on those findings we can then decide next stage of action.

I would have thought the carpet will look much better by end of the night. We can then say lets do it again next week - and then we can maybe go to non-oil based additives for the future. We pretty much know water based additives do not harm the carpet (as years of TC use show). Just need to give it a test on foams for a few years.

I had forgotten about pan cars too - not sure how this impacts them or how many this even affects. They quickly get forgotten about as theyre not a popular recognised class at glos - so apologies for that.

One other point to note, the club is supposed to be running closely alongside BRCA rules. Can someone tell me, is additive banned at BRCA meetings? (rhetorical question - answer is No!)

[J'MM'N]

Agreed the amount of breakages is going to accumulate, along with driving standards as the balance of car is going to be unpredictable and we don't want to see this.

At this time we can only do this as a gentleman's agreement, if you look back through this thread only a very small percentage of members have responded and we don't know how other would feel about this idea.

Is it possible to hold the experiment back for a couple of months when numbers are lower. Perhaps then those that run both classes only run Stox for a couple of weeks, which would reduce the number of TC on track during the experiment.

If there was to be a longer term ban, then could TC's run foams. I don't know as I haven't run a TC since the Yokomo YR4 some 20 years ago.

At the end of the day we don't wish to see broken cars, or loose members.