Legalise Lipos

[bigred5765]

Originally Posted by Kecky

Personally I've had no problem fitting Trakpower 3200 saddle packs in my BJ4WE, or my B4, without modifying the car the the Lipo pack

exactly, so theres pro probably lipo ~(saddle packs )already out there that fit without modification, and so they will MOST likely be on the approved list, but thats still a gamble,

[SHY]

Why didn't any of you guys at least say this out loud at the BRCA AGM??? "They will figure it out..." - are they mind readers???

Now the official BRCA proposal is set for the EFRA AGM... you can't change it there, you either support it + vote over it, or discard it... as is...

So it's either that or the proposal from Norway to vote for - which is without size restrictions or capacity restrictions, and basically quite similar to existing ROAR regulations. Since EFRA will need time to get their own list ready the proposal is for 2009 to simply adopt the ROAR list...

To make things 100% clear: I'm again NOT talking about the BRCA rules for UK, but the european (EFRA) rules for 2009.

So unless BRCA chooses to change the BRCA rules from their own EFRA proposal you guys can just put your TrackPower saddles up for sale... Again, not my concern... just want to clarify this.

Or you can try to convince the BRCA representatives to not support their own proposal... good luck!

What's the opinion of guys from other countries? Have you discussed it yet? Get in touch with your national association and tell them what you guys want!

[_sleigh_]

Originally Posted by bigred5765

exactly, so theres pro probably lipo ~(saddle packs )already out there that fit without modification, and so they will MOST likely be on the approved list, but thats still a gamble,

Nah, the TP 3200 are outside the dimensions specified in the EFRA proposals (and probably what BRCA would adopt). They are (from memory) 71mm long, so two would be 142mm

EFRA Proposal reads - "Total length of saddles when placed end to end must not exceed 139mm."

[_sleigh_]

Originally Posted by SHY

Or you can try to convince the BRCA representatives to not support their own proposal... good luck!

Although surely anyone at the EFRA AGM could propose an ammendment to either GB or Norway's original proposals.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by bigred5765

mark if your so worried, why didn't you turn up at the agm,I'm sure they will look at it from all points of view,but i do kinda agree you shouldn't have to take out your dremmel to make them fit in your car (saddle pack style), and i think that any saddle packs that fit in now with no mod, will probably get through any ways as long as there put forward.

ah but i was................. unfortunatly my plan to get a good comittee in the ic section then get o buggies back fiered as i ended up vice chairman and could not get out the meeting, by the time we had finished you had done and gone

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by Chrislong

We did try to say about not having any dimensions, but there has to be. Nothing is definate until after the Efra AGM, so just hold on to your horses guys. It'll all be made clear.

The BRCA are there to represent us, and they do that well, so do give them chance please - if they do something it is for good reason.

The important thing is that the gears are in motion now.

Also, the 7.4v max wording is done so any future technologies that may come can also be looked at and an EB list done for those also, such as Lithium-ion or whatever else. Great idea to make it like this!

Originally Posted by SHY

Why didn't any of you guys at least say this out loud at the BRCA AGM??? "They will figure it out..." - are they mind readers???

Now the official BRCA proposal is set for the EFRA AGM... you can't change it there, you either support it + vote over it, or discard it... as is...

So it's either that or the proposal from Norway to vote for - which is without size restrictions or capacity restrictions, and basically quite similar to existing ROAR regulations. Since EFRA will need time to get their own list ready the proposal is for 2009 to simply adopt the ROAR list...

To make things 100% clear: I'm again NOT talking about the BRCA rules for UK, but the european (EFRA) rules for 2009.

So unless BRCA chooses to change the BRCA rules from their own EFRA proposal you guys can just put your TrackPower saddles up for sale... Again, not my concern... just want to clarify this.

Or you can try to convince the BRCA representatives to not support their own proposal... good luck!

What's the opinion of guys from other countries? Have you discussed it yet? Get in touch with your national association and tell them what you guys want!

you can propose to amand the proposal of 139mm, so it can be altered to read the max dimension of 144mm should that be the figure you want

so Originally Posted by EFRA proposal 3.11
The maximum case size is as follows: -
Length: 139.0mm.
Width: 47.0mm. (The max. width includes any side exit wires).
Height: 23.5mm. (If additional chassis location protrusions are included, the overall max. height is 25.0mm).
Saddle-Pack cells are allowed, but must comply with the above dimensions. Saddle-Pack cells must have a combined dimension of 139.0mm max when placed end to end.

your rep cam propose and amendment to change it to


Originally Posted by EFRA proposal 3.11
The maximum case size is as follows: -
Length: 139.0mm.
Width: 47.0mm. (The max. width includes any side exit wires).
Height: 23.5mm. (If additional chassis location protrusions are included, the overall max. height is 25.0mm).
Saddle-Pack cells are allowed, but must comply with the dimensions
Width: 47.0mm. (The max. width includes any side exit wires).
Height: 23.5mm. (If additional chassis location protrusions are included, the overall max. height is 25.0mm).
144.0mm max when placed end to end.

its as sipmle as that and thats all that needs doing


in answer to your question " am i happy to let the BRCA boffins sort it"
then yes i am, i know the guys who are representing us, they do a top job, and wont let the out come be a farce that will ruin it for many racers who have the current saddle packs.

[bigred5765]

but we didnt ask for any dimensions at all we ask for just 7.4 nom voltage so it may not even affect it.

[Benh]

I was dissapointed that I couldn't make the AGM.

I am curious as to what's happened. Below I have copied the proposal. So what happened.?

The proposal includes both stick and saddle. It also includes the dimensions that would include Trakpowers Stick and Saddle including both
4400's (dimensions L-70 x W-47 x H-30) and
3200's (dimensions L-71 x W-47 x H-25)

Was the vote raised?
Which way did the vote go?
If (according to what's been posted previously) why was the proposal split between stick and saddle?

Rule 25.1 Proposed: Chris Long Seconded: Jonathan Clark 1.09.2008.

Amend to read

“Cars will be driven by a maximum of six rechargeable Nimh cells or two rechargeable Lithium

Polymer cells in stick or saddle pack configuration, which cannot be replaced after a race has started.

(Rationale – To allow the use of Lithium Polymer (Lipo) batteries at 1/10 Off Road Regional and National events in 2009. Many club racers are already using Lipo batteries at club meetings; if Lipo batteries are not allowed to be used at Regional and National meetings a growing number of members will be excluded from racing at these meetings.

Rules to be amended

Electric Board 3.1 – Amend to include “2 cell (2S) Lithium Polymer rechargeable cells rated at 3.7 volts nominal per cell, 2 cells in series, battery packs must have a hard protective casing that completely envelopes the cell(s).

The maximum case sizes are as follows

– Stick packs –

Length: 139.00mm

Width: 47.00mm

Height: 25.00mm

- Saddle packs -

Length: 71mm

Width: 47mm
Height: 30mm
(Height excludes the mouldings on the bottom of the case that help locate the battery pack in the car)

Electric Board 2.1 – Amend to include “2S Lipo 7.4v rechargeable battery pack - £80.00

BRCA Electric Board 2008 Safety Guidelines and Technical Rules for use of Lithium Polymer (Lipo) Batteries – To be adopted by 1/10th Off Road Section and amended to incorporate the above proposed rule amendments. ie rule 1 to be amended to include saddle pack batteries and dimensions.

The BRCA Electric Board Lipo homologation list, to include saddle pack configuration lipo’s once submitted by manufactures and approved by the BRCA.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by bigred5765

but we didnt ask for any dimensions at all we ask for just 7.4 nom voltage so it may not even affect it.

chris has said there has to be dimensions, to my knowledge the eb also supply effra lists? so if efra pass the size rule and eb make a list to suit, brca use said eb list, you have dimensions.

am i reading to much into chris's post re having to have dimensions?

[Benh]

Link to BRCA Proposal doc - http://www.brca.org/Sections/off_e_1...%202008-03.pdf

[Body Paint]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

chris has said there has to be dimensions, to my knowledge the eb also supply effra lists? so if efra pass the size rule and eb make a list to suit, brca use said eb list, you have dimensions.

am i reading to much into chris's post re having to have dimensions?

Sounds about right, yes.

PW drafed the proposed sizes for EFRA. This is just a proposal, it could, in theory, be ammended at the EFRA AGM, if someone proposes an ammendment at the meeting.

[Body Paint]

Originally Posted by Benh

I was dissapointed that I couldn't make the AGM.

I am curious as to what's happened. Below I have copied the proposal. So what happened.?

The proposal includes both stick and saddle. It also includes the dimensions that would include Trakpowers Stick and Saddle including both
4400's (dimensions L-70 x W-47 x H-30) and
3200's (dimensions L-71 x W-47 x H-25)

Was the vote raised?
Which way did the vote go?
If (according to what's been posted previously) why was the proposal split between stick and saddle?

Rule 25.1 Proposed: Chris Long Seconded: Jonathan Clark 1.09.2008.

Amend to read

“Cars will be driven by a maximum of six rechargeable Nimh cells or two rechargeable Lithium

Polymer cells in stick or saddle pack configuration, which cannot be replaced after a race has started.

(Rationale – To allow the use of Lithium Polymer (Lipo) batteries at 1/10 Off Road Regional and National events in 2009. Many club racers are already using Lipo batteries at club meetings; if Lipo batteries are not allowed to be used at Regional and National meetings a growing number of members will be excluded from racing at these meetings.

Rules to be amended

Electric Board 3.1 – Amend to include “2 cell (2S) Lithium Polymer rechargeable cells rated at 3.7 volts nominal per cell, 2 cells in series, battery packs must have a hard protective casing that completely envelopes the cell(s).

The maximum case sizes are as follows

– Stick packs –

Length: 139.00mm

Width: 47.00mm

Height: 25.00mm

- Saddle packs -

Length: 71mm

Width: 47mm

Height: 30mm

(Height excludes the mouldings on the bottom of the case that help locate the battery pack in the car)

Electric Board 2.1 – Amend to include “2S Lipo 7.4v rechargeable battery pack - £80.00

BRCA Electric Board 2008 Safety Guidelines and Technical Rules for use of Lithium Polymer (Lipo) Batteries – To be adopted by 1/10th Off Road Section and amended to incorporate the above proposed rule amendments. ie rule 1 to be amended to include saddle pack batteries and dimensions.

The BRCA Electric Board Lipo homologation list, to include saddle pack configuration lipo’s once submitted by manufactures and approved by the BRCA.

Because there is already a rule (25.3 I beleive) that says something like, we will only use batteries approved by the Electric Board, it is not possible to have a rule which directly contradicts another rule, therefore the proposal by Long/Clark was unable to be passed.

It is therefore up to the Electric Board to decide what rules they set for dimensions of Lipo and we will have to follow them.

[Chrislong]

What makes sense to me is that the BRCA and Efra want to have consistency on rules like this.

This is because ROAR has a membership of around 60-75% of the BRCA alone, but put the BRCA with Efra and we are far far the biggest RC community in the world. So to have consistent rules means that manufacturers have 1 set of rules to follow in their developments, but by it being the biggest mean manufacturers WILL follow those rules over any other.

So I am confident what happens is going to be possitive, and I know we are going to be represented well. Just need to have patience.

[SHY]

OK, now we're getting somewhere! I see now that you have really tried, that's great!

True, it's possible to amend a rule at the AGM, but it is seldom being done. Therefore it's not something you can normally hope for.

In any case, try to speak to your national representatives that are going to the EFRA AGM, and explain why you don't want size or capacity restrictions OK? (And try to convince them to amend the proposal)

That goes for all countries!

Best practise for rules is IFMAR (Worlds) = FEMCA (Asia) = ROAR (USA) = EFRA (Europe) = national rules

K.I.S.S.!!!

It's great that the superswede Dallas Mathiesen is now president of both EFRA and IFMAR. Comminication and cooperation between the two had room for improvement in the past!

As to size I cannot really understand why you can't keep the current size specs for NiMH (which is btw normally never being checked...) and just let LiPo batteries be free as to size. What's important is that the list contain good info as to size, so that the racer will know before buying a given battery if it will fit his car or not. It's the same thing with charging - there will always be idiots that don't read the instructions and pay for it... Forcing people to buy new & homologated chargers does IMHO not provide any "real" safety. You just need to educate and inform the customers and racers! Knowledge is power!

And again... this is not touring cars with massive grip! This is buggies on slippery slopes. To put it simple - there's not really any need for ANY restrictions as to motors and batteries - so keep it dead simple!

P.S. Have you guys seen the new proposed 1:8 TR mufflers? It'll look like a gun sticking out of the shell...

[Benh]

Originally Posted by Body Paint

Because there is already a rule (25.3 I beleive) that says something like, we will only use batteries approved by the Electric Board, it is not possible to have a rule which directly contradicts another rule, therefore the proposal by Long/Clark was unable to be passed.

It is therefore up to the Electric Board to decide what rules they set for dimensions of Lipo and we will have to follow them.

I see; it's here in bold.........

Existing rules: -
3. Rules - Rechargeable Batteries:
3.1 Cells submitted for approval prior to <insert date> have to conform to <insert date> BRCA EB rules. The following technical specifications follow the rules adopted by EFRA and will apply to any cells submitted for approval from <insert date> Only rechargeable NiCd or NiMH cells rated at 1.2 volts nominal will be allowed at BRCA sanctioned events.

I am absolutley shocked that this wasn't picked up on the entry for the proposal - or was it? I am glad I couldn't make it, getting up at 5am to make the 6 hour round trip to the AGM and my vote counting for zero would have been quite depressing.

It says adopted by EFRA. Which means that this rule/list is determined by EFRA? - (Just read shy's post - that's a yes)

If this is the case, I understand the logic of what is happening being a global sport/ hobby. But, doesn't this go against "our BRCA" we make the rules?

So.... the BRCA meet with EFRA. They pitch an idea, it goes to vote and the list is incorporated based on the vote. But, if the EFRA meeting is next week and the proposal deadline has passed and the proposal isn't on the table what happens?

If it is adopted by EFRA, then it naturally becomes incorporated into the BRCA EB rules, that means the BRCA rules need to be changed. This requires a proposal (Jonathan Clark and Chris Longs will do) but then it requires a vote by members. Which requires another meeting, an EGM (emergency general meeting)

Alternatively, we could have the rules 25.2 and 25.3 put under rule 2.2 giving the off road section autonomy on the use of cells under the guidance of PW.

It all seems a little complicated to me. But then I may have missed the point here. I am off to mail the BRCA commitee folk and find some clarification.

Either there is a way for the ruling to be changed or there isn't. If there is, it would be ideal to know how and what's being done to see it through in addition to finding out how we can constructivly assist and what channels to use. As above wasn't picked up (JC and CL's proposal) my confidence on it being resolved is not at an all time high.

[David Church]

There is alot of ideas and comments flying around. The BRCA are the best in the world, and I am sure they are acting in our best interest.
I hope people will give them a chance to show us what they plan on doing after the EFRA AGM this weekend. That's not long to wait!!!

Please people, try not to be angry

[SHY]

I'm sure the americans patiently waited for Georgie boy to do his thing too...

(Sorry, just couldn't resist...)

And I'll bet you they'll elect that McBrain dude next...

Jokes aside, I'm sure PW & the rest do a really good job. But you know - even the best mom can't hear her deaf mute child cry...

At least tell them what you want & why, I'm sure they are glad to get pointers from you experienced racers! And those AGMs are loooong and tiring... you'd better be prepared before you go...

[David Church]

[quote=SHY;172582]I'm sure the americans patiently waited for Georgie boy to do his thing too...

(Sorry, just couldn't resist...)

And I'll bet you they'll elect that McBrain dude next...




Umm.....do you know I am from California or is this just a joke I don't get???? Lol

[Lindsay]

All the talk seems be coming from people who have jumped the gun and bought Lipos hoping that they were all going to be legal.This happened way back when we only used to use 1200mm cells and 1400mm were coming out.[ remember Panosonic was not legalised at first ] From my dealings with the BRCA over the last 20 years you will not change their minds. So I suggest like most of the team drivers you wait while their is legal list B4 you buy.

[ashleyb4]

I think we should let i all pan out the BRCA have always done a good job and will continue to do so the electric board will determine which packs are safe suitable and within suitable guidelines all we can do now is wait and see what is leagal. What ever decision is made it wont be perfect first time out next year can be used to iron out the creases.

A