BRCA EB Battery Regs Announced

[DaveG28]

Originally Posted by spenner

Im confused ????

Never said anyone was looking for any advantage!! (after all we can all buy the same cells)

Yes i can run Lipo in the Pred, BUT that is with me chopping the chassis to bits. Sticking filler in holes etc... etc . I am pretty sure i can get them to fit in the BMax by using the same methods.

All i am saying is a Rule has been made End of the matter... For the reason's above. I DON'T want to have to chop, fill my chassis to get cells to fit. Instead i will wait for cells which are made to correct dimensions to be made and then i will run them. (I have been told the REEDY lipo Saddles are right size ????) £109 a pack though (so i was informed)

Hope that clears it up.

Yes it does sorry, understand more of where your coming from now! though you'd be lucky to get the Bmax done even cutting it up, it would also require brand new motor mount/central spur housing!!

[RcRob]

Originally Posted by Northy

Do nimh cells not exist anymore then?

G

No...

[spenner]

Originally Posted by DaveG28

Yes it does sorry, understand more of where your coming from now! though you'd be lucky to get the Bmax done even cutting it up, it would also require brand new motor mount/central spur housing!!

I reckon you could do it with some chopping... so much so that the first BMAX owner to be able to fit a stick lipo in there car so it runs i am willing to give them a brand new Tekin Stick lipo pack for there troubles. Happy chopping

How fair is that ?

[Doomanic]

Originally Posted by spenner

I have been told the REEDY lipo Saddles are right size ???? £109 a pack though (so i was informed)

So £24 over the price limit then.

[discostu]

i wouldnt count on the reedy or the smc cells fitting dimmentions as the lage mah cells are 25mm or over

and as for nimh cells yes they still exsit but with tight budgets and so called credit crunch £200 to spend on batts for a years racing when it could be £60 doesnt seem to cut it not to mention the fancy chargers discharges.

stu

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by Cockerill

WRONG

You can't play that card on this one. The racers turned up to the AGM, with rules proposed to get what we wanted. Unfortunately our best knowledge was not enough and we are left with what we have now, which is NOT what the majority wanted.

Unfortunately these things happen, the racers voted for a sensible rule that meant everyone around the world runs to the same rules. As you said we didn't understand what we have voted for and unfortunately as all the various section AGMs take place concurrently the person who should have been there to point it out was in his own section AGM.
If you reread what I wrote I said that the rules we have are what the racers voted for at the AGM, I didn't state that what was voted for is what they actually wanted when they had time to look over the rules afterwards.

Don't get me wrong, I believe we seriously messed up here as being a new technology we, as racers, didn't actually know exactly what was being voted in. Like in modified touring last year, I'm sure that the dimensions rule would have been changed if a bigger size had been voted in at the EFRA AGM. Unfortunately for Trakpower the battery manufacturers who are EFRA affiliate members and were consulted on lipos are Orion, LRP and SMC, none of them likely to alter the rules to allow Trakpowers.

In a similar way 1/12th oval also made a major mess up. They now have a brushless class which has an £65 brushless ESC price limit, yet have no limits at all on the brushless motors - how mad is that. Both classes have to wait until the next AGM to fix the rules.

[Northy]

£200?

3 packs saw me through all National, Regional and club racing in 2008, 2wd and 4wd.

G

[discostu]

maybe we could take our rear prop shafts out and rear belts and if you own a xx4 you could just use a skill saw and chop a hole in the belt tunnel to get a stick pack in at least it will look like a 4wd car it may handle like the brca rules
(rubbish) but hey at least it will be legal

[discostu]

Originally Posted by Northy

£200?

3 packs saw me through all National, Regional and club racing in 2008, 2wd and 4wd.

G

ok £60 per pack times 3 = £180 compaired to £60 plus a new car if you are unfortunate to run a HB, AE, LOSI, TAMIYA, YOKOMO, JCONCEPT but you maybe lucky.

[Northy]

Originally Posted by discostu

ok £60 per pack times 3 = £180 compaired to £60 plus a new car if you are unfortunate to run a HB, AE, LOSI, TAMIYA, YOKOMO, JCONCEPT but you maybe lucky.

And for many years there has been no need whatsoever to pay £60 a pack!

Anyway - we're going off topic......

G

[Cockerill]

Originally Posted by terry.sc

the racers voted for a sensible rule

Sorry to say this, but your wrong again. We didn't actually get to vote on what we wanted, something to do with us having to stick to EB rules, as written elsewhere.

[discostu]

no you are correct but that is the price the top manfactures cells are retailed at orion etc i can get cells for £25 ish but newcomers int the sport WILL bye from shop's and get sold £60 cells as the saddle lipos are not within the rules.

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by DCM

The EB have only gone and alienated the club racers basically, for ditching duff and dangerous cells, thats how I see it. They would of given a slighly longer dimension for a saddle pack, and catered for everyone. But they have been short sighted in what they have done.

Club racers are the one group of users that the new lipo rules don't effect. The BRCA rules are only mandatory at BRCA sanctioned events, the BRCA nationals and the BRCA regionals. If other championships and clubs want to run to the BRCA rules that is down to them. At my local club I don't think any of the 'club racers' even bother checking the batteries they buy are on a BRCA list or not as the club does not have a rule that the batteries everyone uses must be on the EB list. This also means all the 1/5th bike national racers at the local club can use their soft cased lipos from their bikes in their cars and buggies, for example.

As for classing all nimhs as "duff and dangerous" I now run Ener-G 4600 saddle packs in pan cars, these cells are loved by the 1/12th lads. After the race put them in the pit box and leave them there until next weeks race. Take them out, discharge and charge them and that's it. They don't self discharge much, after 9 months all have been totally reliable and not head any stories of them exploding.

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by Cockerill

Sorry to say this, but your wrong again. We didn't actually get to vote on what we wanted, something to do with us having to stick to EB rules, as written elsewhere.

The 1/10th off road rules state that all batteries must be on the EB approved list, that rule has been there for some years. What was voted for was just to raise the voltage limit to 7.4v, nothing more, nothing less, which is what was wanted as it allows lipos.

The original proposal for 1/10 OR included dimensions big enough to include Trakpower saddles, but unfortunately what was also agreed was that if EFRA voted in lipos then the EB should create a specification which matched the EFRA spec. A perfectly logical idea as there's no point the BRCA voting in a rule that could mean any pack made for EU and the US was illegal in the UK. Unfortunately no one foresaw that instead of creating our own lipo specification the flawed ROAR rules would be adopted to the letter.

With hindsight the racers should have stuck to the specs in Chris Longs proposal and the section should have submitted that specification to the Electric Board, the same way touring cars did the year before. Unfortunately none of us can see into the future.

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by discostu

and as for nimh cells yes they still exsit but with tight budgets and so called credit crunch £200 to spend on batts for a years racing when it could be £60 doesnt seem to cut it not to mention the fancy chargers discharges.

As Northy said, even if you buy cells at full price from a shop, it's been a long time since you need to buy £60 cells to be competitive. Also those of us still running nimhs would also need to buy 'fancy' chargers/balancers as well as lipos. Shops will always sell £60 'team spec' cells as long as people feel they 'need' that extra hundredth of a volt even if they crash every other lap.

One thing that's usually forgotten about, even if you pay £200 on batteries, how does that cost compare with how much petrol/diesel you are using going to nationals and regionals?

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by terry.sc

Didn't we all go through this just after the AGM? Anyone who already uses lipo saddles for their racing won't suddenly find them illegal in the same race series unless they change their rules. As usual just like nimhs last year wait to see what's legal.No. As the BRCA chairman often states, you are the BRCA. The committee are there to organise racing based on the rules the majority of ordinary members voted for at the AGM. If you feel it will kill the class of racing then blame your fellow racers who didn't go and vote against the rule.
The ordinary members voted to adopt the same rules as the rest of the world, seems a sensible decision at face value.
A lot of people have been surprised with the reliability, performance and lack of maintenance needed with todays cells over the old IBs. No one can complain about cell reliability if they are going to stick with Intellect cells.

they were not allowed to vote on what they wanted!

Originally Posted by spenner

Hence the reason i put rules for Sub C, surely thats a good guidline!!!! It was obvious they wouldn't fit when they tried them in various cars!!!

Why not all get together and start your own Lipo 'Saddle' section in the BRCA ??? Other sections have done this to go there own way... I remember racing 10th Trucks in the late 90's, always had to be the first section to run the latest stuff. Funnily that section died after around 3-4 years when everyone got sick of buying stuff to be competitive, only to be unable to use it in other classes.

yup but sub c rule is for the cell, not any pacaking or battery bars, so why should lipo have to be a case dimension, when the cell is only used in sub c

[mark christopher]

this may ruffle a few feathers and upset some but here goes..............................


i personally think the BRCA and eb bodies have let the majority of racers down

they are there to promote the sport of model car racing, and the goveners, who are voted in should represent the members who voted for them, they should not follow efra/ifmar and go against what the majority want, which is a goood fair set of rules.

not many cars require major work to take saddle packs, but now all those saddle pack cars that run lipo have no choice but to go nimh or buy a lipo stick car, this is the last thing elec off road needs as its growing imensly with allot of tc racers comin over. i really enjoy driving my buggy, but the politics is spoiling it at the moment

it will be interesting to see how many championships and clubs drop the brce/eb battery rules!

the worksop international has!!

i have certainly lost any confidence i had in the system for fairness. in this instance as the governing body has miss represented the members wishes! im vice chairman of 10th ic section and if i had not cerried out what the members wanted i would expect to have a vote of no confidence put against me and either removed from my post or asked to step down.

http://www.oople.com/forums/showthre...ight=lipo+poll

[Adam Skelding]

I can't say I'm stunned by the decision, the BRCA seemed to dig it's heels in early.

If Orion, LRP and SMC are on the Affiliate member list, where are their legal saddle LiPo's?

Hopefully, regions (which is where this rule is going to hurt most) will allow, if they can a relaxed view on the LiPo regs. But as G has mentioned, if anything goes wrong at a BRCA sanctioned meeting the organisers are in for a rough time.

As Terry.sc has said, the BRCA have made an error, let's hope they learn from it. Hopefully, they have someone on the board next time who 'Understands what they are voting for' before they 'seriously mess up again'.

[DaveG28]

On a separate note, but still on topic, would anyone be against an Interim list being available of approved cells which then got updated as more were approved?

Just asking as the submission deadline is end of Jan, give say a week or two to test/confirm and we may not have a list until Mid Feb, meaning no-one can sort there batteries if going Lipo (even stick!) till then?? Any batteries bought before then could be junk!

BRCA may already be planning this, but if there's no objections I'll email and ask?

[Chrislong]

My thought is the BRCA have been in a difficult position. As with the fiasco of the NIMH cell rules 12 months ago, and the exploding cells (Yes modern Ener-G cells DO explode, and let out a blue flame like a blow-torch!! as do new generation of IB's, just not as much as 2007 cells), nimh cells have a bad reputation that is justified, and still is. Anybody who wants to use them needs there plums testing.

So with all this, racers have got a little pissed off with forking out on cells, maintaining them religiously between every charge and they still loose performance or go pop... so racers have created a market for Lipo by choosing to use them at any meeting they could before any guideline written for the manufacturers to follow. I for one have done this.

With racers doing this, clubs and series have allowed Lipo, such as Worksop, NE indoor regionals, Broxtowe series etc. Clubs that try to dissallow Lipo have suffered, such as York early in winter (rules changed in the week before to avoid loosing attendance's), Kidderminster etc. Us, as racers, have forced them to be accepted at anything but BRCA sanctioned events.

So with the bad reputation Nimhs have created, racers have forced Lipo's in faster than the BRCA could hold an AGM. This isn't the fault of the BRCA or the manufacturer (or anyone to that matter), just unfortunate circumstances.

What should have happened, and we try to make happen, is the BRCA allow what we are currently using (use of a combination of sense and hindsight). At the AGM we were there in force, big attendance, we tried to write the rules to the letter there and then, but not allowed, we asked for some assurance the rules would be what we want - we got that assurance, but they are not what we want. We asked for the guideline & provisional list to be available early, this didn't happen either.

Soooo, what do we do? Well I am running stick cells currently in both my cars, so no issue for me. But how do we make our voice heard, we have tried and failed, so do we do it by bocotting the BRCA sanctioned events? well thats up to you, but if that happened it would force the people who don't listen to listen, the rules are written for us, without us there is no event.

Id like for there to be a series, perhaps at Blyth, clashing with nationals, and i'll happily attend (not due to the Lipo decision, but due to the choice of venue for 2009 national (my opinion only)). Perhaps a resurection of the Radio Race Car series?