Homologation, Rules and Scrutineering

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by TARTMAN

sadly, one is..... it was a winter series like any other club race. not a sacntioned brca event like a regional etc.
that aside, the rules are flaunted to suit those at the time making a mockery of the BRCA rules and regs etc.

and regarding getting 100 people there to vote bla bla, yeah right. the problem is those that go and vote are the same people in would guess. I have never been invited or informed of when or where the vote takes place etc. and as mentioned i think above somewhere, nor has others.

Its a sad state that the official side of the hobby/sport is in and needs sorting.
Use the wondeful age of digital/internet etc and make that happen, people do not have the time/funds etc to make a trip to where ever this voting goes on and "make a difference". So it will continue like this.

Out dated "turn up and vote" systems just do not work or have a place in this modern world any more IMHO. Everyone has to accept the world and people move on and they have to keep up or give up.

and still, it goes on.................

you dont get invited, the AGM every year is on the last weekend in october, the date and venue are allways well published on the brca site, the reason the "same old" go is becuase folk can not be bothered to get of there arse for one day of the year and make a difference. now if every key board warrior weho moans about the brca or who moans about the rules you race to went, then things would be very different.

as pete has put you aint never going to get the Eb dropped form a section until you go and do somthing about it with like minded folk! of course you may need a new chairman too.

[mattr]

Originally Posted by DCM

This is something that doesn't happen anymore (well apart from stock touring car racing). I am running Batch 1 Tekin Redline motors, cheap nanotech saddle packs and 2 year old Gensace batteries and my car still has more power than I need. The days have gone when you have to chase the magic power, which I think is where Jimmy is coming from, that you no longer have to control things as much due to the fact that we are finally at the point where we can't use the whole power of the systems whereas in the days of NiMH's and brushed, we could easily dump a pack!

yup, it was lovely coming back to as much power as you could handle, pretty much any gearing you wanted and still getting 15 minutes out of a 25 quid battery. And 18 months (so far) out of a motor.
I used to trash a stock motor every month or so and one of my three 50 quid factory matched packs would dump early about once a month........

[dodgydiy]

Originally Posted by terry.sc

Because they are no longer commercially available. To allow your pack creates a loophole for manufacturers to create 'special' team packs for those classes where batteries do make a difference. In on road you will be nowhere with a 5 year old pack in your car.

Because they aren't commercially available in the UK. I know they are cheap and lots of us have them, but none of us have walked into a UK shop and bought it over the counter. Every motor and battery needs a UK distributor to submit it, so they can prove they are genuine with customer backup in case anything goes wrong.

As an example, what if a lipo caught fire when at home, like what happened with Gil Losi. Your insurance company will pay up and then chase the UK distributor for the money they have paid out. If there is no official UK distributor then the importer is you and you would end up picking up the bill.

ok after a quick search the ezrun motors are available in the uk in four outlets without even trying..... and yes they can be bought over the counter. my argument is simply that a lot of clubmen use cheap or older equipment, would like to go and try nationals, but cant afford to spend the money buying new kit just to do one meeting a year. as for the batteries being commercially available, they were, and on the list till two years ago. i know things have to be updated and old items removed, but why isnt there a rule allowing cells from previous years lists to be run, this does not create loopholes for new improved items to be run, it just allows hobby and clubman racers to carry on racing and go to the odd meeting without being forced to spend a fortune on new items that in a lot of cases, including me, will make no difference to their enjoyment or finishing position at a meeting.

[Coastal]

Originally Posted by DCM

This is something that doesn't happen anymore (well apart from stock touring car racing).

Really - I race in touring car stock meetings and most are using one or two motors for the whole season.

[Si Coe]

Of course there isn't actually any need for BRCA sanctioning. The BRCA is a convenient, well established governing body but there is no reason it actually has to be the only one.
It is entirely possible to set up an alternative body just dedicated to 1/10th Off Road. I already know of clubs who have arranged separate (ie not through the BRCA) insurance and do not require racers to be BRCA members so if a new body formed it could like offer insurance. The Oople and RRCi series have shown you don't have to be the BRCA to run a national series.
The only downside is that IFMAR won't recognise the 'alternative' as the 'true' national series for Worlds qualifying.
And we can have no silly homologation rules and online AGM voting too

I actually reckon this idea is more viable than trying to change the way the BRCA 1/10th section works. The comment about busing in 100 people to the AGM in order to swing the vote is the truth - and the reason many are put off attending. Its a long journey to the AGM venue and unless you are already a well established name in national circles its highly unlikely anyone will listen to you (I may have never attended a BRCA AGM but believe me I've seen enough of these in other fields to know how it works) so its a wasted journey unless you bring a LOT of mates to back you up.

[bigred5765]

brca proposals need one to make the vote and one to second it, i went when we were trying to get Lipo's in with Chris long,so no you don't need 100 people to push something through,or to get it heard,

[jimmy]

Originally Posted by SlowOne

Jimmy, it is disappointing that you asked for debate, and then lay into the people who disagree with your view and start that debate! It is almost as if someone has hacked your user-name and turned cool-Jimmy into troll-Jimmy.

Sorry boss but I asked for debate not attacking - Terry admitted being a bit bored I think and he must have spent a fair while attacking everything I'd written but in such a way that it was like he's not even read it, or if he had, he's misunderstood somehow. When I see a huge post that attacks everything I said in what I see as a purely argumentative manner - then fair enough, I will admit I tried to reply to his original post but everything he said was just plainly wrong that I got frustrated and gave up replying.

If you know what I know, then maybe you would think differently - but that's why we have different opinions. I am not invested into my opinions like I want to hammer them home - yes touring cars would be better if instead of spec bathtubs they had spec real cars. People would look at them and think, cor! Want to get racing that.

I think the biggest class in Japan is........... Drift? It's not 'racing' and I confess I don't really get it, I like drifting, but I don't understand the competition side.
Why is drifting big, hmmmm - thinking.... thinking.

You have a list of approved shells - what does it take to say, approve some others instead? It's just an idea that would be COOL. If you think that flame-painted bathtubs look cool then your opinion is invalid haha.

So, am I right or am I wrong.
Terry picked up on this and said the following:

If your complaint is that they don't look realistic, why aren't you also complaining that buggies look even further from the real thing. If touring cars should be running scale replica shells then buggies should have live axles and a cage like the Axial Wraith, not something that bears no resemblance to the real thing.


What sort of attitude is it to start attacking someone that way. Do YOU think it's right? Terry says I'm complaining - well, no, I wasn't. He says 'why aren't you also'...... etc..... Well who's the guy who loves realistic looking buggies the most here? Oh, it's me. Who's the most vocal and constantly takes the mick about cab forward shells - erm, me again. If you care to read my original post, you will see in there that I did just that, but Terry attacks me for NOT doing it...... What planet are you people on



Let's pick another random quote....

You are assuming that a small increase in battery voltage won't make a difference in all other classes.

Right - well I clearly said the opposite to this. I said in off road it is not something people would do. In stock or other classes maybe. So - again, why is terry attacking what I've said - and in turn, why are YOU attacking what I said since you agree with him, when in actual fact you're both misquoting me!
Terry put words in my mouth that I never said - what the hell!




Hmmm, ok, one more.


I would ask around the 1/12th racers then. They have seen several lipo fires in their pits.


I'm not interested - it's already mentioned I think by Terry in this thread that 12th racers cheat or some try to. So then, what does this have to do with what I was talking about. A lipo fire yeah, never seen one personally - nimh's exploding, seen lots and genuinely frightning. Not sure why 12th scale keeps cropping up in a conversation about 10th off road but hey.



Ah, I could go on with every single point Terry aggressively made - and by admittance, you yourself agree with.


Lets take my question about fractions of a mm on lipo cells. Terry replied to my question with this:

Because there is a maximum size and the manufacturers should take that into consideration.


Sort of bypassing the point that I was talking about fractions of a mm and that by admission - they expect racers to measure their cells in a shop before buying. If you don't believe me, ASK. Don't assume I'm making this up.

There's no 'advantage' to bigger packs of cells for 10th off road - people are using smaller packs! So, why has my question been attacked.




This sort of argument to a common sense question is just silly:

Okay, lets allow a car with slightly longer axles to pass scrutineering. Then what is to stop another manufacturer making their buggy wider, because you can't argue that it's not allowed while allowing someone else to run with a slightly oversize car.


Let's use COMMON SENSE not be blinkered. Those wheel nuts don't give an advantage - stop putting words in my mouth that cars will suddenly become 3ft wide... COMMON SENSE!!!!!!!



If you think I'm a wanker - again, it's ok, I am a nob fair enough. But I love this hobby and a thread posing questions and suggesting off the wall ideas shouldn't just be picked apart with false arguments and misquotes.

End of the day I was talking about 10th off road - I was talking about common sense. If you think common sense is bad and that rules made in secret are ok, then cool.

I don't have hard feelings either way - Terry is a good guy I'm sure, but he's just plain wrong, as are you sir, since you totally and utterly misread what I said and misread what Terry said in response. I've tried to point this out to you above but hey. We all have different opinions - that's why you now think I'm a tosser for having a pop back at Terry, but can't see that he was having a pop at me. It's all good, it's all useful - this thread might come to blows but that's progress. Secret meetings and forced-through decisions aren't cool.


You are free to PM or email me and I will tell you some secrets that will change your mind. It's up to you if you want to know what I know.

[DCM]

Originally Posted by Coastal

Really - I race in touring car stock meetings and most are using one or two motors for the whole season.

Not at national level they are not, and that is something that will ALWAYS happen in a stock class, as the only way to be fast is to whip your motor to within an inch of it's life. When you ramp boost and turbo ontop of tall gearing, the thermal load on the rotor degrades the magnet quickly rendering it feeling rather used. I am not saying a motor a run or meeting, but to keep at the pace, your motor is decidedly past it's best after a meeting or two, it is the nature of the class. Mod racing is totally different.

[jimmy]

When I raced mardaves which were tightly controlled - I water dipped running reverse, cleaned and lubed the bushings and bought the best 4-cell packs I could and charged them at the absolute max my charger would do, 5 amps I think. They were GP's so I survived unscathed but that's what you have to do to compete in stock, get every last bit out. What I did wasn't cheating - my car was no faster than anyone elses in a straight line but I won the club championship because I carried speed through the corners on a well-overgeared motor.
And just incase Terry is reading, yes, I ran the ABS shell and I had all the windows cut out and steel mesh to make it look scale. Because I like scale-looking stuff.


It might be a common paranoia among stock racers - certainly everyone 'thinks' others are cheating and by talking to people it sounds like yes they are, at least those who want to win by any means and be 'more equal'

[Si Coe]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - controlled classes don't work.

People always say they want a level field but what they mean is a level field for the other guys whilst I have a slight edge. So they cheat, or at least bend the rules as far as they'll go.

The present situation in 1/10th offroad is the first time there has been no need for rules to 'level the field' because the real restriction we have now is the performance of the humble Yellow Minispike.

Now is one of the best times to be racing I've ever seen. Brushless, Lipo, 2.4ghz, PT's make everything so easy and simple. But better even than that is the fact you can get into the sport with some pretty cheap but decent RTR's. When I first started racing back in 1990 it was a common sight to see young lads turn up with a shiny new Thunder Dragon with a basic 540 and wiper speedo for their first race, promptly get pounded by Procats with esc's and 16 turn motors, get the shock of their life when they found out the cost and leave never to return. Whereas last Sunday I watched a first timer take an RTR FTX Vantage Brushless out and make it look pretty competitive against the expensive stuff.
But my problem comes from the fact that technically that car isn't legal at regionals - the motor isn't approved and neither are the cells. So thats a potential new talent put off higher level racing......

[jimmy]

It's a hazy memory but I'm not sure which regionals I've done that had rules. I know the North West used to have about 5 of us racing 4WD at a regional!!! Never a mention of any rules and no scrutineering that I can ever remember.

You're bang on with regards to how level a playing field it is - there's no need to cheat, there's no reason to over-cook your cells, there's no reason to run an 8th scale brushless motor.

Next the 'double yellow' rumour will surface and all hell will break loose in here!

[bigred5765]

Originally Posted by jimmy

It's a hazy memory but I'm not sure which regionals I've done that had rules. I know the North West used to have about 5 of us racing 4WD at a regional!!! Never a mention of any rules and no scrutineering that I can ever remember.

You're bang on with regards to how level a playing field it is - there's no need to cheat, there's no reason to over-cook your cells, there's no reason to run an 8th scale brushless motor.

Next the 'double yellow' rumour will surface and all hell will break loose in here!

come on jimmy explaine

[jimmy]

Shhhhhhhh!!!!!

[MattW]

There is 2 simple fixes here.

I can see where people are coming from, not going to state an opinion either way!!

So the fixes a) ask the importers of this cheap kit that you want to run why they haven't submitted it. Neil has already posted that in his opinion cost isn't an issue. B) propose to remove the rules from the off road section rule book, hen go to the agm and vote for it.

Job done, fixed.

Go on jimmy, send the rumours out there!!

[Frecklychimp]

Originally Posted by jimmy

It's a hazy memory but I'm not sure which regionals I've done that had rules. I know the North West used to have about 5 of us racing 4WD at a regional!!! Never a mention of any rules and no scrutineering that I can ever remember.

We have to abide by electric board lists in our region and cars are scrutineered

i assumed it was the same for all regions, thats another can of worms!

[racingdwarf]

Interesting read through this thred.

One point I read makes me scratch my head a bit. I remember photos of the worlds with paul and a set of verniers failing racers lipos if they were a millimetre over size. now from what I read this is not the racers fault, the manufacturer should have designed the hard case to accept the small amount of swelling so the battery pack never changes from it original dimensions, I know of many makes that swell when used and the case always bulges a bit, SO what are we paying customers getting for our money the battery is homologated, we buy it (normally at twice the price of an un homologated battery), it swells, it fails technical inspection. So should the BRCA strike these manufacturers off, fine them? or just leave them there on the list regardless.

I also can't help but notice the trend of homologated equipment batterys or motors are in MOST cases a hell of a lot more money than other stuff.


As for the bit in Jimmys main post about the fuel tanks and fuel stops in rallyx, untill you realy get the hang of it I can understand how it looks, and yes if you can't do 10min in a final your going to struggle! BUT it's not about cost, it's about the right engine, pipe,plug and carb setting, venturie combination, I can get 10min with ease out of a losi nitrotec engine (sub £200) and I'm not running it as lean as I can eather, rules shouldn't eliminate setup and tuning skills...after all they are one of the dark arts of rallyx

I think on the whole, as has already been said, common sense should prevail, the whole BRCA rule book should only be pulled out for the nationals, as they are top end racing, but would I send a first time regional racer home because their motor was not on the list, their car is a mm to wide, or their body shell was not legal,batterys not from uk importer .......No

[SlowOne]

The Electric Board is there for all Sections - 12th, TC, Off-Road - not just Off Road. There is no compulsion for any Section to run to those lists. Get people to your AGM and vote that rule out - simples.

I still don't like this Jimmy. Cool-Jimmy would have given Terry's posts a bit more thought and discussed it, not tried to pick apart the details in a that way.

I hope that someone does set up a new Association and goes off with a few people to run in the way you want. It's been tried many time before, including one in the US that offered $5000 prize money to the winner of their series. They all failed because in reality the majority of racers and manufacturers prefer using their National Association rules (BRCA, ROAR, etc,) and having products they can use at National, European and IFMAR level.

But, as I said earlier, what we have here is a bunch of keyboard jockeys with no intention of doing anything about it, just moan on here. And, accusing other sections of being cheats with no evidence whatsoever. Sad... very sad...

[jo90]

LOUD NOISES !

....sorry, just thought I would break up the debate with a little light hearted humour.

MY 2p worth. Rules are there to 'try' and make the playing field as flat as possible. To ensure at least that drivers abide to rules so that when you go to race you know what your racing, in what fashion and how.

Homologation is there to try and ensure again an even field of use, however it would be good if there was a way to include items without some of the red tape currently, but the red tape is understood - it's there to 'try' to stop any dodgy equipment being used. However alot of the time the dodgy stuff that goes bang isn't the issue, it's how it is being used/stored and understood.

Why BRCA ? Because we need a controlling voice. Im sure many will know my past 'debates' with some BRCA members, but this doesn't detract from the fact I agree the BRCA is there for purpose. Also it covers insurance being part of this group etc. Get a break away sect and insure them only to find that the insurance doesnt cover this and that and the hand you just list is going to cost you millions.

All in all I go racing to see friends, have a race and a good laugh. I abide by the rules so as to make it fair for me to compete against all who turn up (if only you could limit skill too hehe).

[Garry]

The Deltawing in full size motorsport is a good example of what is possible when you aren't constrained by rules created 10/20 years ago. Its still got 4 wheels and an engine, but its a fresh look at an existing problem.

Maybe RC needs something like this? A race championship where your car has one 2S battery pack, one 540 sized motor, and 4 wheels. Here's a course, pick the electrics/tyres/chassis you want. How fast can you drive round it? Which would be quicker, 1/10th 4wd electric buggy? A 1/10th rally car? a 1/14th micro?

[P_B]

Originally Posted by jo90

LOUD NOISES !

Ha, loving the Brick reference!

Originally Posted by jo90

I abide by the rules so as to make it fair for me to compete against all who turn up

In my head at least, Jimmy's ranting essentially distills down to the fact that specifically in 1/10 OR it's fairer now than it ever has been. If we stick to control tyres and basic size/weight construction regs then it's a pretty even class of racing.

Now that anyone can cheaply obtain enough safe reliable power to go stark bonkers ballistic for a 5 mins run, why not find a sensible way to relax the section rules? When you're grip limited there's no advantage to oversized lipos or secretive fettling with higher voltages, motor-cooking timing and mad max rotor magnets, just as there's no advantage to running £75 lipos/motors over carefully chosen £25 ones.

Though designed to control and (to an extent) legally protect us, the current rules seem outdated and there are concrete (if equally outdated) means to change them. If people feel strongly enough then access those procedures, make your voice heard and your vote count.

Then, if you tackle that succesfully, we can all move on to the team drivers and their secret compound tyres