BJ4WE and total lack of balance

[RogerM]

Right then, before I make a choice between the for sale section or encasing the car in a block of concrete I want to make sure I am not missing a trick!!!

The BJ4WE seems to be a total piglet .... absolutely without balance in any way shape or form!!! The only place I have got it anywhere close to how I want it has been indoors on carpet and then it was passable at best!!!

The problem is a lack of balance, if you have front end grip you don't have rear and vice versa.

At kiddy I just couldn't get the nose into the corners without having the rear set so that you couldn't carry any throttle through the corners let alone adjust trottle mid corner.

At Coventry today I had absolutely no traction or sidebite at all and trying to set the car soft to help traction and sidebite it became really random (rolling about too much). I then stiffened the car back up and although it was much easier to drive it was a full second a lap SLOWER than when it was soft. Ok, it was consistently slow and much easier to drive but at least 1 second a lap slower than before (The top of the A went quicker than they had done all day so th track hadn't given out).

I've tried Richard Lowe's set-ups and working around those but they have FAR too much high speed understeer for my tastes.

I am convinced it is a combination of the rear inner link position not being outboard enough of the lower hinge pin and the fact the weight is too far back. Both of these will lead to the collapsing of the rear end.

My question is what have people done to deal with this this .... other than the S4 conversion obviously??

I have a couple more runs this year with the car and want to make sure I use them wisely. I don't mind rubbish placings due to constantly changing the car during the winter, all part of learning your way round a new car. The only problem is that I am going to have to do this with the 2wd too so have to move onto that in the new year.

If anybody can help I'd be greatful, if not I'm going to have to chance chassis.

[bert digler]

Originally Posted by RogerM

Right then, before I make a choice between the for sale section or encasing the car in a block of concrete I want to make sure I am not missing a trick!!!

The BJ4WE seems to be a total piglet .... absolutely without balance in any way shape or form!!! The only place I have got it anywhere close to how I want it has been indoors on carpet and then it was passable at best!!!

The problem is a lack of balance, if you have front end grip you don't have rear and vice versa.

At kiddy I just couldn't get the nose into the corners without having the rear set so that you couldn't carry any throttle through the corners let alone adjust trottle mid corner.

At Coventry today I had absolutely no traction or sidebite at all and trying to set the car soft to help traction and sidebite it became really random (rolling about too much). I then stiffened the car back up and although it was much easier to drive it was a full second a lap SLOWER than when it was soft. Ok, it was consistently slow and much easier to drive but at least 1 second a lap slower than before (The top of the A went quicker than they had done all day so th track hadn't given out).

I've tried Richard Lowe's set-ups and working around those but they have FAR too much high speed understeer for my tastes.

I am convinced it is a combination of the rear inner link position not being outboard enough of the lower hinge pin and the fact the weight is too far back. Both of these will lead to the collapsing of the rear end.

My question is what have people done to deal with this this .... other than the S4 conversion obviously??

I have a couple more runs this year with the car and want to make sure I use them wisely. I don't mind rubbish placings due to constantly changing the car during the winter, all part of learning your way round a new car. The only problem is that I am going to have to do this with the 2wd too so have to move onto that in the new year.

If anybody can help I'd be greatful, if not I'm going to have to chance chassis.

what tyres AND insert did you use

[RogerM]

Should point out I've been through .....

all rear link positions (1-3 washers as I can't get 4 in and rely on the nylock nuts)
both standard anti-squat settings .. and a bit of shimming
EVER Associated rear spring
Lots of oil changes

Smae at the front except I've not tried the longer link at the front as yet .... only so many runs in a day!

[RogerM]

Originally Posted by bert digler

what tyres AND insert did you use

Whatever is most appropriate on tyres and always use the DC Racing light blue inserts (same as the snee ones)

Trust me, it's not a tyre issue as I've tried "interesting" choices too.

[bert digler]

Originally Posted by RogerM

Should point out I've been through .....

all rear link positions (1-3 washers as I can't get 4 in and rely on the nylock nuts)
both standard anti-squat settings .. and a bit of shimming
EVER Associated rear spring
Lots of oil changes

Smae at the front except I've not tried the longer link at the front as yet .... only so many runs in a day!

lifting the rear brace does help why i dont know but it does by placing two washer between chassis and block

[bert digler]

Originally Posted by RogerM

Whatever is most appropriate on tyres and always use the DC Racing light blue inserts (same as the snee ones)

Trust me, it's not a tyre issue as I've tried "interesting" choices too.

fresh ballistic pinks or blues

[bert digler]

Originally Posted by bert digler

fresh ballistic pinks or blues

sorry greens not blues

[bert digler]

http://users.pandora.be/elvo/

[RogerM]

Fresh pinks today ... greens might have been a little more consistent but I had enough trouble with one set of tyres and glue in the cold.

I've seen that guide, it's very good.

Should point out that I've been racing since the mid 80's and car set-up generally isn't a problem.

I do however need a car that you can lean on and carry lots of corner speed that will stand throttle adjustment mid corner. Too many years running a Predator in RRCi stock class to change now!

[bert digler]

Originally Posted by RogerM

Fresh pinks today ... greens might have been a little more consistent but I had enough trouble with one set of tyres and glue in the cold.

I've seen that guide, it's very good.

Should point out that I've been racing since the mid 80's and car set-up generally isn't a problem.

I do however need a car that you can lean on and carry lots of corner speed that will stand throttle adjustment mid corner. Too many years running a Predator in RRCi stock class to change now!

ive been racing 20 years and newer cars dont seem as forgiving as older ones i must admit my favourite car of all time was the cat xls just awesome in its day

[PaulRotheram]

I'll offer more help tommorrow as right now im currently completely exhausted from today. But one thing i noticed you say:

I've tried Richard Lowe's set-ups and working around those but they have FAR too much high speed understeer for my tastes.

I've tried richards car, and it is anything but how you have described. Infact richards car has the most steering i've ever experienced.. and very balanced. Something doesn't sound right..

[bert digler]

Originally Posted by PaulRotheram

I'll offer more help tommorrow as right now im currently completely exhausted from today. But one thing i noticed you say:



I've tried richards car, and it is anything but how you have described. Infact richards car has the most steering i've ever experienced.. and very balanced. Something doesn't sound right..

the astro track at coventry is an absolute pig to drive in the wet it has no traction at all on the flipside its grippy as hell in the dry

[RogerM]

Fairysnuff .... look forward to your input.
My car is pushing like a mother to be of quaduplets on Richard's Set-ups!!!!

[Lee]

How many washers are you running under the ball stud on the front camber link? reducing this makes the car more positive, as said above you must be missing something? are you running a 1 way?

I run the same as rich, give or take a shim here and there, the car is always positive.

Silver springs all round , 30 wt blue piston rear and red 35wt front.

3 shims under rear camber link, 1 at front, std squat, outside on all wishbones and middle of towers. Always run a 1 way!!

[RogerM]

Front is 1 shim under and outer hole, rear is 3 under

I run a 1-way on the shaft .... never been a fan of them in the diff ... find having it on the shaft is much smoother to drive.

Interesting you say outside holes in the wishbones .... most of the set-ups I've seen have been using the inner hole on the front and all are inner on the rear. That might be the problem right there!!! Been thinking that there is a bit too much balance in the droop front to rear, usually prefer a car with less front droop than rear. My next step was going to be limiting the front by about 3-5mm in terms of the resultant droop.

Need to find somewhere to test over the next couple of weeks!!!!

[Lee]

In side holes on the front make it very random and snatchy and as you say increase droop which would give more lift on power and more weight transfer to the rear, and on power understeer

[RogerM]

that is what I would ahve thought but so many people seem to be running that location I slavishly followed .... fool that I am!!!

Right then, first change!

[matdodd]

I allways ran the inside holes on the xx4 but since going to the S4 have stayed on the outside hole on the front & inside on the rear on most tracks, it just seams to let you push much harder like that!

[Chris Doughty]

incoming spanner....

obviously my experience is from the S4 but I believe this option is universal between the 2.

front shock location on wishbone...

outside is safe and has mid-corner push.
inside keeps the car hooked up in the middle of the turn.

keeping the droop the same between these settings keeps similar on power steering, I find that letting the front droop more give you MORE on power response. (this is when using a one-way-diff. I never use anything different)

so I find if I want to make the car drive more from the front on-power I give it a slight bit more droop on the front than the rear.

typically I use axles level with chassis as a base setting for droop all round, a touch more on the front if I want the drive from the front feel.

also - if Lowe runs a one-way-diff and you don't thats where your heavy push comes from, especially on power.
you could try and tighten up your front diff, but you might loose turn-in

[KyoshoK]

Q: how is all your electronics placed?