Lipos, how to get approval.

[LongRat]

Originally Posted by DCM

Simply not the case, if you look at the power rating of a motor and a lipo, most, if not all proper race packs have a much greater rms and pmpo power rating than any bwr maybe the really haìry chested mod motors, this ìs why you are now seeing more 4wd cars being designed around the shorty lipo. If you could theoretically have an esc with no resistance all you would end up doing is roasting motors.

The fact that the same car can run at measurably different speeds with 2 different, approved and fully charged packs is evidence that this is not the full story. Yes, any decent pack will likely be rated to deliver more power than is required, that doesn't mean it will do so under the motor restrictions in place. Connect up a pack with a lower IR, change nothing else and the circuit will draw more current - you will get a higher performance out. Shorty packs are being used in many cars because the positioning freedom and weight advantage far outweigh any electrical performance detriment. Doesn't mean there isn't a difference though.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by LongRat

I don't think the list is for safety reasons. That would imply that anything not on the list is unsafe

The question that I think needs to be answered is, must the importer be the person to submit a battery for homologation? As a private individual why can't anyone buy some batteries from a UK importer and ship them to the BRCA for homologation? They simply absorb the homologation cost from the importer, who may be completely disinterested in bothing with BRCA homologation.

Nope it means they are not tested, so an unknown....

If you take a little time to read the documentation on the EB site, you will find a list of things the submitter needs to submit along with the lipo. As far as I'm aware you don't get that when you buy the lipo from any store.

[Jim Spencer]

Hi

I've been aimed at this thread - but think most of you have your head round why cells are homolgated - it basically makes sure that you're all using products where You can be assured the correct paperwork for the importation of that item has been done - and if something goes pear shaped you don't end up carrying the can.

Makes we wonder why the UK importers of other cells don't send them in for the trival (it covers the admin) cost?



I think a headlong rush to adjust a sections rules to remove that bit of knowledge from the organisers would, certainly for me, make me happy to race (as i'd not touch a non-homologted cell with somebody else's stick).
But there's no way what-so-ever i'd organise the event..

Make sure your existing (or new) meeting organisers are happy before voting that one through..

[DCM]

Hi Jim, out of curiosity, apart from the audit trail of paperwork and certification, what else is done when a battery is sent in for homologation?

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by DCM

Hi Jim, out of curiosity, apart from the audit trail of paperwork and certification, what else is done when a battery is sent in for homologation?

I'm sure if you email Paul Worsley or Russ Giles, they will let you know.

[DCM]

Because I would rather them make that information public than just tell me Mark.

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by Chris56

The point regarding the "importer" is an interesting read.

Where does Hobbyking stand with all of this? They now have a UK warehouse which can supply Turnigy and Zippy LIPOs. Both brands are highly regarded and are widely used. Lets say that one of those goes pop but it was purchased through Hobbyking UK, where would the liability stand?

Well there is an interesting situation. I believe if you purchase from the UK Warehouse you are still buying and paying for the goods with Hong Kong, the only difference is that the products are sent on to you from Lucky Stuff Ltd in Ipswich who just receive the goods into the UK and forward the goods from Hobbyking in Hong Kong to you. You don't actually deal direct with a UK company.

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by LongRat

The question that I think needs to be answered is, must the importer be the person to submit a battery for homologation? As a private individual why can't anyone buy some batteries from a UK importer and ship them to the BRCA for homologation? They simply absorb the homologation cost from the importer, who may be completely disinterested in bothing with BRCA homologation.

All the information is readily available on the BRCA website.
http://www.brca.org/content/battery-...procedure/1399

Technically anyone could send batteries to the BRCA for homologation, but you would also have to send in:

• A safety test certification in accordance with:-
UN Manual of Test and Criteria ST/SG/AC.10/11/Rev.5, Part 3, Sub-Section 38.3, Tests T1 to T8.
• A data sheet giving:- recommended charging safety criteria and maximum charging amps and voltage. This sheet must also include safe disposal procedures.
• A technical data sheet for each Battery Part #, giving specifications of :- sizes and weight with tolerances.
• Details of :-case material, nominal thickness of case and sealing method (eg. Cyno, Sonic Weld etc.)
• Name and contact details of the nominated distributor in the UK.
• Confirmation that the battery submitted:-
If a new production version, that it will be widely available within UK before: 2S - 01.03.14, 1S – see above.
If already in production, approx. number that have already been supplied to UK.
• A declaration stating that the submitted battery is not in any violation of existing World Wide patents. This information to be supplied by an authorised representative of the manufacturer and also applies to any OEM supplier versions.

If you can meet those requirements then you can submit a battery, it's not just a case of paying £40 to get it on the list.

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by DCM

Currently, batteries give out far more power than we can use, so mil spec batteries won't help you, now, mil spec electronics that significantly increase efficiency is a different matter.

You are looking at from a narrow minded off road only view.

The reason drivers in other classes will buy the highest capacity cells is to keep as high an average voltage over the length of a race, for the most speed from the spec motor that just about every on road electric class runs. By using the EB list it ensures
1. That all batteries are available to buy in the UK.
2. That the batteries allowed are fixed for the year, so there's no battery of the month as new higher capacity cells come out.
This why all the other sections that use the EB lists consider them a good thing.

As off road is open regarding motors then voltage isn't a problem, and no one is trying to get down to the minimum weight in their buggies, off road is unique in electric classes by battery choice not being that important. If off road created a class with a fixed motor wind, with no battery restriction it would come down to battery performance to get the most speed possible with drivers buying higher and higher capacity packs to get that little extra speed out of the motor. Just like the old days of nimh when everyone chose to race with Intellects, even though they were unreliable junk that regularly failed or even exploded, but just because they kept a very slightly higher average voltage than other cells.

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by DCM

Because I would rather them make that information public than just tell me Mark.

Marks point is that Jim is no more involved with the testing than you or I. By going direct to Paul or Russ all your questions can be answered, instead of going through Jim.

If you contact the people who actually do the testing you will find out exactly what the procedure is, and if you want to make it public you can ask Paul Worsley if he would be happy for you to post it online.

[andys]

Correct me if i'm wrong but in the chats i've had with fellow racers / model shops etc - I am led to believe that there are 2 main suppliers of Lipo cells that we use in off road - regardless of who put's a sticker on them / sells them in the UK.

This (i'm told) is why some cells have the terminals on saddles the other way around. So far i've found that Turnigy and my older Trackpowers have connectors on the opposite side to my Intellect and HB packs.

If this is indeed the case - that everything we use comes from either China Factory A or China Factory B then in my opinion, if a lipo set originates from an already approved supplier, then it's as good / safe / etc as any other?

Re the figures / capacity / power argument - doesn't hold any water for me as i've tried all sorts of lipo's and can't see / feel / measure the difference on track. To that end I buy cheaper lipo's now as I see no point buying the highest C rating etc.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by andys

Correct me if i'm wrong but in the chats i've had with fellow racers / model shops etc - I am led to believe that there are 2 main suppliers of Lipo cells that we use in off road - regardless of who put's a sticker on them / sells them in the UK.

This (i'm told) is why some cells have the terminals on saddles the other way around. So far i've found that Turnigy and my older Trackpowers have connectors on the opposite side to my Intellect and HB packs.

If this is indeed the case - that everything we use comes from either China Factory A or China Factory B then in my opinion, if a lipo set originates from an already approved supplier, then it's as good / safe / etc as any other?

Re the figures / capacity / power argument - doesn't hold any water for me as i've tried all sorts of lipo's and can't see / feel / measure the difference on track. To that end I buy cheaper lipo's now as I see no point buying the highest C rating etc.

Hmmm some of mine have hollow tubes, so do lrp/nosram, so in your suggestion, which factory do they come from?

If there are two factories, then for example, if they have quality control and matching, could it be the substandard cells ( by the manufactures tolerance) are sold to cheaper outlets that don't want them on the list?

[andy110m]

Mark, I think you missed Andy's point slightly.

Andy is suggesting all the technology, or lets call it the nasty bit of the cell is made in factory A or B.

The brands who operate in our market ask these factories to package the nasty bit in a hard case to which ever particular brand design, so some do have hollow tubes and have blue plastic, others have black plastic but the point being the nasty bit has still come from factory A or factory B. So the produce from either factory is already on the list inside many different plastic boxes and stickers.

So taking that on a step, all we're really doing is approving the plastic case.

[andy110m]

Just looking again at the in depth data required for approval, I'd suggest its likely to come from the manufacture rather than the brand, even if they change the letterhead.

It'd be interesting to compare the submissions for similarity's. Maybe we could identify which factory supplied which brand?

I don't know I'm just guessing from my own experience in the MRO (maintenance, repair and overhaul) industry. Lots of rebranding but data sheet info nearly always comes from the source.

[s22jgs]

i havent read through the whole thread, but my comments regarding the nano techs would be they are a great performing battery - not as good as my thunder powers or HPI Plazma's but more than enough for club racing. However, i have found the casing to be of pretty poor standard, and all but one i have owned have cracked during crashes or impacts in one way or another.

I don't necessarily think this deems them dangerous. All i have done is tape them up with electrical tape. I simply wouldn't use them again if i thought they were dangerous, and i am very selective in what car they are now used based on protection etc.

However, i can see how the quality and thickness of the casing could be a reason for them not being approved.

[andys]

Originally Posted by andy110m

Mark, I think you missed Andy's point slightly.

Andy is suggesting all the technology, or lets call it the nasty bit of the cell is made in factory A or B.

The brands who operate in our market ask these factories to package the nasty bit in a hard case to which ever particular brand design, so some do have hollow tubes and have blue plastic, others have black plastic but the point being the nasty bit has still come from factory A or factory B. So the produce from either factory is already on the list inside many different plastic boxes and stickers.

So taking that on a step, all we're really doing is approving the plastic case.

Spot on

[Neil Skull]

Many products come from same factorys it true but the spec they are built to for every supplier can be fully different.
To meet correct certification certain rules have to be followed and materials and only approved factorys to be used. getting the cells approved is costly for EU import rules, but gives you the best assurance the products are made to strict spec and safety regulations.
Its the same for electronics and other manufacturing from overseas.
There are batteries and electronics on the market from overseas that are just dangerous and don't pass regulations.
You pay your money and take your chances.

[Jim Spencer]

Originally Posted by andys

Spot on

Or it would be if the initial statement you were confirming the interpretation of was correct

While it's true that there are a considerable number of 'labelled' cells there are quite a few manufacturers of the 'nasty bit' too now-a-days, well into double figures I'm lead to believe

Plus of course the quality of the case is a key point.


The checks done are to confirm that the cell in question meets the dimensional rules - but most importantly is accurate to the paperwork submitted with it and it wouldn't be the first time if one wasn't.


However the fix - if any of you have bought, or are thinking of buying these should be simple:-

Write to the supplier and give them a good kicking for not submitting them, if they still don't do it then, for the sake of £40, there must be a question mark over why not IMHO
None of that paperwork is onerous, they should have it all in place simply to sell the product here.


Or to put it simply:-

Ask the question of the people doing this wrong, not the ones doing it right..

[fidspeed]

just my two penny worth

I see both sides of the story here and each has its merits

Jim
I wholeheartedly agree with what the BRCA is doing and the list ,
can I ask a question are batteries that are submitted, destructively tested ? sure dimensionally they may match submitted paperwork, but without disassembly how do you know whats inside . If they are dismantled my view has no back up

I too have turnigy cells that I run at at club level and had no issues so far .this of course does not guarantee further failure .On the flip side I have had "quality" branded batteries off the approved list that have failed or ,swelled prematuerely (no misuse either)

regards Dave fid

[mattr]

Originally Posted by Jim Spencer

there are quite a few manufacturers of the 'nasty bit' too now-a-days, well into double figures I'm lead to believe

in 2012 there were 8 or 9. Plus a dozen or so "manufacturers", who were just acting as middle men for the 8 or 9.

We had a hell of a job getting quotes from 3 different manufacturers, kept seeing the same quotes from the same office with the same drawings and terms with different headers..........