Need more power on steering for rear motor TLR 22

[uijui]

So with kit setup, slippy polished tile surface. With minipin rear, cut stagger front, tried shorty lipo in all positions, but there's not enough steering, when power is applied! What to try? Ball diff, slipper loose. Should I try gear diff??? Help

[Frecklychimp]

have you got reasonable rear grip or is it very easy to spin out when putting power on?

in all conditions i found 25deg kickup shim (included in kit) and 5 deg castor blocks an improvement on mid car.

i assume you mean straight out of the box with camber link positions, shock oil/springs? which piston size did you fit?

is it mid or rear motored too?

need to know as much as possible to consider any advice matey

[uijui]

Sorry, forgot some details, so Rear motor. Setup like this http://www.tlracing.com/ProdInfo/Fil...t-Standard.pdf

Only mod inline axles. Shorty lipo 200grams.

And yes so slippy that front tires won't take grip when power is applied, and it's still slippy at rear on some points. With very low speed 180deg turns car turns too much when the front's take grip.

And thanks for info in any case !

[Frecklychimp]

TBH i don't think i can help you that much with this one...

I have a rear motor car for running outdoors when it is proper wet, when first testing it on dry and wet astro and grass i transferred the complete geometry and shock set up as my mid car to it, but with a milder 9.5T motor (6.5T for mid car)

It was spot on or me, only played with ride heights and tyres, drives fine!

problem i have is with advice is that on wet Astro and grass, i can overcome the slippy side of it with some spiked tyres and loosening the slipper as required... the set up works fine (apart rom having to remember to take jumps differently!)

I run no weight in the rear mounted car at all and run a full size LRP 5900 stick pack (they are quite bulky compared to other packs)... always run 80g's under LiPos with mid car and an extra 50g at least TLR rear weight as soon as its damp/wet or very bumpy.

i have not raced on a full polished floor for many many years and only with 4WD's... been on many tracks that have slippy sections but as with most drivers its a case of taking care with throttle on those bits and making up for it on the grippy bits!

Are you using a control tyre with the minipins? Is it worth trying something like full spikes or pink Ballistics all round to allow tyres to generate more grip?

yellow minipins are probably a bit hard carcass wise for using on polished surface

Have you tried minipins on front?

Have you tried slim staggers on the front?

what are other drivers running tyre wise?

200g is a fair amount of weight to be adding, where is it placed?

[jcb]

As Frecklychimp has said if you are not running a control tire I would try a tire a longer spike as had already been mentioned. I'd be tempted t try a schumacher silver mini spikes all round.

As for setup changes, when I ran mine rear motor I felt the 25 degree kickup and 10 degree hubs gave nice progressive steering and helped with on power steering. You could also try lengthening the front link to hole 1.

Otherwise it might be a case of playing about with where your weight is located.

[uijui]

Thanks for answers. Yes controlled tyre on rear - yellow minipin.... I just have to try. But I allready tried shortys in all positions. And different anti-squat + different diff tensity (ball). I will now try gear diff and minipins at front. Original stagger rib didn't turn at all on that surface.

[jcb]

Originally Posted by uijui

Thanks for answers. Yes controlled tyre on rear - yellow minipin.... I just have to try. But I allready tried shortys in all positions. And different anti-squat + different diff tensity (ball). I will now try gear diff and minipins at front. Original stagger rib didn't turn at all on that surface.

If you've not got a control front tire could you try a spike or even a really soft rib like a proline or losi perhaps.

Maybe a really short link will help, it will make the rear end nice and progressive when it does start to break away.

Perhaps one of the losi guys will come up with an suggestion, as I can't think of much else to give a go.

[Frecklychimp]

Whatever you do just try one thing at a time, sticking with the things that improve it and binning those that don't back to original settings.

I you added 200g in the wrong place it may just be pushing on badly, which won't help anything.

[uijui]

Originally Posted by Frecklychimp

Whatever you do just try one thing at a time, sticking with the things that improve it and binning those that don't back to original settings.

I you added 200g in the wrong place it may just be pushing on badly, which won't help anything.

Of course, I usually tend to make "big" changes, one at time, because otherwise you cannot "feel" the change.

Problem is that I will not be able to drive this surface before last Winterjumps Series. BTW Here is pic from the track: http://www.joukohyvarinen.fi/RC/rata.jpg

[jaywestwood]

From looking at your set up sheet I would set 2 deg camber front and rear lay shocks over on towers stand rear shocks out on wishbone and remove all inboard camber link shims. Then i would run 1.5 mm shims on top of steering arm
maybe try different inserts too???
maybe a little weight in car front and rear..

hth

[Frecklychimp]

Understandable, i've ji've tried to help far too many people that will not change one thing at a time looking for grip and they sometimes miss a setting that works.

track looks great, a real challenge with a 2WD buggy i bet, i'm surprised yellow minipins are the control tyre for that surface, must make it very difficult for all 2wd racers... must have to use fairly slow motors and lots of throttle contol to get anywhere in the right direction!

I'm not sure that a geared diff will help unless you use very light oils, maybe 1K to start with on a low traction surface

my gear diff in my mid car took away some of the steering which was good because it is used on high grip tracks... but haven't tried gear diff in the rear car, it is barely used, so couldn't comment.

On that surface you would want quite a loose ball diff anyway to help traction when turning.

Maybe more rear toe in would help it generate grip under power, negative camber will keep the car more stable in a straight line but as you don't have grip from tyres it won't roll in corners so you may lose traction because of it.

[jaywestwood]

Adding more camber will aid the car in rolling in the corner and by adding weight it will put more pressure onto the tyres so overall will give you grip...
something else that may help is to remove the lower screws from the motor support bracket

[Frecklychimp]

Originally Posted by jaywestwood

Adding more camber will aid the car in rolling in the corner and by adding weight it will put more pressure onto the tyres so overall will give you grip...
something else that may help is to remove the lower screws from the motor support bracket

It's a rear motor car so wouldn't have the motor/chassis brace

have you looked at surface they race on?

Camber will do what you said if there was grip, if there is nothing for the tyres to bite into then it will slide.. camber gives stability in straight line whatever the surface.

Depends where the weight is, if its all up front then the car will push on wide into a corner, if its all at rear then it will be too light at front, so will again push on understeer until the pendulum from weight of rear motor swings back end round and as the weight transfers rear to front.

I did wonder looking at that surface, with it being extremely slippy whether a mid car would be more balanced and change direction easier than a rear motor car? is anyone running mid motor cars succesfully at the meetings on that surface?

[Timee80]

Try -
stiffer rear spring, shorter rear link at the hub, raise steering spindles, lower rear inner link, reduce droop in front shocks, reduce anti squat, lengthen wheel base at rear, add a front wing.....

as previously said, try one change at a time to feel the difference. copying someone elses setups teaches you nothing. Play with all options, some will be wrong, but you will know when you may need that change in the future depending on what you are looking for next time.

[uijui]

For a mid car on that track. I raced last WJ series with mid, finished 9th. There was only one other mid Dex210 at A-final. And it was hard to drive, lots of weight at back, still no steering. Loosed rear grip on some points. Slipper veryveryvery loose (I run AE vented slipper, worth of trying).

There was only one opportunity to try track after race, and then I tested many settings, but had no minipins to front for test.

Problem with that track is that it's a track for race, not available any more. So it's hard to try things anymore....But next Winterjumps series race is on Model Expo, and the surface is same, that's why I'm asking opinions.

[Gnarly Old Dog]

There's lots of good ideas here and for what it's worth, here's my two pennies worth.

Sounds to me that the real problem is a lack of mechanical grip all round. When the grip is low and tyres don't appear to be working, I'd start looking at softening the suspension to allow more weight shift as you'll need to generate traction via weight shift.

so for me, I'd run in the outer link positions in both the front and rear camber blocks (effectively shorter links) as I've found this helps the car to 'generate' traction in slippy conditions.

More front caster will help keep the nose in the turn for longer - I'd run possibly 25 deg kick angle with the stock 10 deg caster blocks.

Raising the inner ball stud height will also keep the car in the turn longer.

At the rear of the car - I'd stand the shocks upright and move them out on the tower - but this will make the car more squirmy. It makes it more reactive but at the limit, it will dump over and feel squirmy.

Less antisquat will improve rear traction as it will enable greater weight shift. If you think you are getting too much weight shift rearward, then try limiting your front shocks as this can be effective.

Rear toe angle is also important. but it's always a balancing act between too much forward drive vs smmother in-turn performance.

All of these changes can be felt but the biggest contributor is most often the tyre + insert combination. I prefer a minipin front tyre to a stagger rib but this is on carpet (and with a mid car). But TBH, I've normally found that I can run more tyre on the front of the rear car than I can with the mid car so I wouldn't be scared to try a minipin front.

If you are running the stock pistons, you might want to try rounding the edges lightly to create a radius between the upper/lower faces and the sides of the pistons. This really helps improve the small bump performance of the shock and makes them more active. If the stock piston is making the car resist roll and keeping it flat then you'll be fighting against it in order to generate the weight transfer during roll that I think you need.

So much to think about but at least it'll be a great excuse to go out a play some more

Like it's been said earlier - try one thing at a time and try to evaluate what the change has made. in all cases, there will also be an opposite and often negative effect also - so you have to think about if the change is better overall or worse - even if it addresses the single issue you are thinking about.

HTH.

[maximumbreak]

You should stay with your ball diff. It is much better than gear diffs in slippery conditions because the ball diff has much more traction when accelerating.

In general I think that your car is too light. I understood that you don't have any additional weights? I would add 50 grams on front axle.

And you should try less anti-squat on rear axle. That means that you have to reduce the kick up angle of the rear wishbones (they should be nearly parallel to the ground). This will keep more weight at the front axle when accelerating (= more on power steering).

[uijui]

Thanks for suggestions! I think Gnarly Old is closest to point, lack of mechanical grip, so I will follow his advice or at least try!

As background I say that tuning car is still a bit hard for me, I have had 15 years break in racing and driving, now driven 1,3 years and almost regular A-final attendant in Finnish winter series, hopefully also in summer series (clay). In 4wd B44.1 is easier for me to tune, as I have gotten used to it, but in 2wd I have went from B4.1->VegaB4.1->TLR22.... So this car is quite new to me. I appreciate your help highly! Thanks