Clarifications to the GT12 Rules

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by LongRat

Mark, we do disagree, I have stated my opinions so we can leave it at that. This is something we do agree on!

My workings come from this:
1S and 2S cars lap a track at a similar pace. They therefore are producing similar power levels. 1S car does so at half the supply voltage, so must draw about twice the current to achieve this. Resistive losses scale as the square of the current, this is where the extra heat comes from. Your 45A speedo will not restrict the current flow to 45A. It might just overheat if the continuous draw exceeds this value though. Instantaneous spikes of somewhat over 100A are very likely. Modern cells can take this, but of course the 1S system NEEDS to be heavily loaded up (geared) to get any performance out of it so it isn't doing the battery any favours. In an era where people are so conscious of battery safety, this appears to be a strange move.

If 1S/13.5T is as marginal as you are implying, how come 1/12th seem to manage fine running 4.5T motors on 1S for 8 minute races and the bigger and heavier WorldGT cars are happily running 1S/10.5T. I don't see 1/12th or WGT racers regularly replacing their batteries.

I use Loong-Max 2300 2S batteries in a solid machined case that I manufacture and sell.

So, for all the protestations about needing to have a set of BRCA rules to follow for 2S, you are then using a soft cased micro pack that you would only be allowed to run at a BRCA micro class meeting. If there was a 2S GT12 class at the nationals you would have to run a BRCA legal hard cased pack.

[RogerM]

Originally Posted by terry.sc

Am I missing something here? Surely the simple way to find out what you need to run at your local club is to go down there and ask them what they run. Why are you making a 100 mile round trip to avoid them because you don't know what rules they run to? The BRCA rules might have no bearing on what they run, the only way to find out what classes they run is to go and ask them.

The BRCA rules for sanctioned national meetings have always been for 1S 13.5. The rules have also always stated the 21.5T appendix was there as a framework for clubs if they want to run 2S.

You are missing the point a little yes. EVERYBODY I have spoken to at that club has said they believe that 2s is the superior set up, those who do the bigger events told me that they had to fit 1s kit for those events.

I spoke to the next nearest club & they told me they only ran 1s.

I currently have all the gear to run 2s other than the motor, to put a 1s setup in (remember it would have to be a particular brand in my case) would be prohibitively expensive so puts me off the class.

I believe that to be true for most people who want to run GT12 as a 2nd class, unlessof ccourse their first class was 1/12th.

[TrevCoult]

Terry, I wish I could "like" all of your posts as you are almost the only person who is talking any sense here! You are talking about what would be best for the class overall, for nationals and for clubs. Most others are talking about what would be best for themselves individually either because of the equipment they use or something they sell.

GT12 has taken off as a 1S national class. It has taken off mainly as a 1S club class too country wide. There are some regions that for various reasons run mainly 2S. There is nothing wrong with any of that. If clubs are changing from 2S to 1S that is up to them, not the BRCA. If a club wants to remain running 2S it can, there is nothing stopping it. All it has to do is take the existing 2S rules and make them their own.

Trev

[RCMadShane]

Listen I do understand your points on the 1s v 2s argument but I think you may have missed where I am coming from..
1. Clubs need to follow the BRCA rules if we do not then we find that people have to spend more money to run in a national..
2. The BRCA stipulated that the 2s option was permitted so now many clubs have adopted this option.
3. By deleting the 2s option removes all club drivers from being able to enter a national
Is this really in the best interest of the sport.

[Dave Dodd]

Originally Posted by RCMadShane

Listen I do understand your points on the 1s v 2s argument but I think you may have missed where I am coming from..
1. Clubs need to follow the BRCA rules if we do not then we find that people have to spend more money to run in a national..
2. The BRCA stipulated that the 2s option was permitted so now many clubs have adopted this option.
3. By deleting the 2s option removes all club drivers from being able to enter a national
Is this really in the best interest of the sport.

i read the the rules when they 1st come out because i wanted this to be a new class at our club (actually i wanted a SSS to race with the mini's) and I seen straight away the point in the rules where it says 2s is only a guide for clubs not national events.
this was discussed with other members over the summer (off road only during summer) and majority of us went 1s route as it ment we could enter a national if we so wished..

so its been in the rules since they were 1st published....

many clubs only use the brca as a guide, we (wbmcc) do not enforce brca legal electrics, we only ask that lipo's be hard cased, this helps beginners come and race with whatever they have..

[TrevCoult]

Originally Posted by RCMadShane

Listen I do understand your points on the 1s v 2s argument but I think you may have missed where I am coming from..
1. Clubs need to follow the BRCA rules if we do not then we find that people have to spend more money to run in a national..
2. The BRCA stipulated that the 2s option was permitted so now many clubs have adopted this option.
3. By deleting the 2s option removes all club drivers from being able to enter a national
Is this really in the best interest of the sport.

2S has NEVER been permitted at a GT12 national. They have always been 1S 13.5 only. It was only added to the rules for clubs to use as some clubs were already running 2S.

It has been proposed that the 2S rules be moved to an appendix to the main national rules rather than remove them altogether. This seems to be an acceptable compromise for those clubs running 2S that still wish to follow BRCA rules, and also clarifies that nationals are 1S only.

Trev

[RCMadShane]

Originally Posted by TrevCoult

2S has NEVER been permitted at a GT12 national. They have always been 1S 13.5 only. It was only added to the rules for clubs to use as some clubs were already running 2S.

It has been proposed that the 2S rules be moved to an appendix to the main national rules rather than remove them altogether. This seems to be an acceptable compromise for those clubs running 2S that still wish to follow BRCA rules, and also clarifies that nationals are 1S only.

Trev

Sorry if I am being rude here but Get your facts right!!
This is the current rules listed on the BRCA 12 section website.. it clearly states 21.5T and has no mention of CLUB ONLY!!!
http://www.brca.org/index.php?q=sections/subsections/pages/gt12-rules/13572.

[Dave Dodd]

entry for a gt12 National:

You have selected to enter a round of the BRCA GT12 National Championship 2012/13.
Class: GT12
The meeting is to be held at Stafford Model Car Club on the 16th March 2013.
The Championship consists of 6 rounds on the Saturday of 1/12th Scale Nationals, with 4 to count.
The new GT12 construction rules will apply.
At this event GT12.1 and GT12.2 classes will run together although a note will be made of each cars construction for future reference re championships and numbers...
At least 20 places are available. In the event of less than 70 1/12th scale drivers attending, extra spaces will be available.
No driver can run in GT12 and 1/12th at the same event.

Class Rules
13.5T brushless motors as per Electric Board list.powered by a 1S LiPo cell on Electric Board list. Approved ESC in “blinky” mode as per Electric Board list
Or
G2 brushed motor powered by 4 cell NiMh

NB 21.5/2S combination is NOT allowed at National level

[TrevCoult]

Originally Posted by RCMadShane

Sorry if I am being rude here but Get your facts right!!
This is the current rules listed on the BRCA 12 section website.. it clearly states 21.5T and has no mention of CLUB ONLY!!!
http://www.brca.org/index.php?q=sections/subsections/pages/gt12-rules/13572.

Please get YOUR facts right. Look at section 7 of the rules. They specify which parts of the rules apply for the GT12.1 and GT12.2 classes of racing, which are those raced at nationals. None of the 2S rules are included.

I DO know the rules, I've talked to the person who wrote them about them often enough! My son has also competed at every national this season in GT12, I've had to make sure I know the rules.

Trev

[RCMadShane]

At last .. Thanks TrevCoult.. for this...

I have been asking for bloody ages where in the rules it stated this and I have had no answers .. I did say I had looked through the rules and could not see where it was stated that this was a Club only rule… but as it stands really the 21.5T is just classless.

I am sorry to get so stressed over this but you must understand that I know at least 20 people who have gone out and bought what is decreed as the wrong thing and for them to enter a national event will have to go out and buy again… For the most I don’t think they will not everyone has the spare cash.. so please understand this anger is directed at the Rule book not individuals and our current economic climate

I will now go back to our Committee and inform them of the situation but for the poor 20+ people who have taken the wrong path… well what can I say… It is what it is

[TrevCoult]

Originally Posted by RCMadShane

At last .. Thanks TrevCoult.. for this...

I have been asking for bloody ages where in the rules it stated this and I have had no answers .. I did say I had looked through the rules and could not see where it was stated that this was a Club only rule… but as it stands really the 21.5T is just classless.

I am sorry to get so stressed over this but you must understand that I know at least 20 people who have gone out and bought what is decreed as the wrong thing and for them to enter a national event will have to go out and buy again… For the most I don’t think they will not everyone has the spare cash.. so please understand this anger is directed at the Rule book not individuals and our current economic climate

I will now go back to our Committee and inform them of the situation but for the poor 20+ people who have taken the wrong path… well what can I say… It is what it is

No problem. It is known that the rules in their current form are not the easiest to read which is why the 2S rules were initially going to be removed, being effectively unused for nationals. As some clubs still want to run 2S though and would like the rules to stay they will almost certainly now be moved to an appendix.

This does in reality only effect anyone who wants to run at a national. Clubs can still run to whatever rules they want and if the majority of their members want to run 2S there is nothing to stop a club from letting them except their own club rules.

This is a new class at national level, it always takes a couple of years for things to settle down.

Trev

[mark christopher]

i really do not see what you need to be told, i have already answered and proven you to be incorrect, myself and trev both have competed at nationals, please re read my post 57 and you need to get youre facts correct, 2s has NEVER been a national class

Originally Posted by RCMadShane

Sorry if I am being rude here but Get your facts right!!
This is the current rules listed on the BRCA 12 section website.. it clearly states 21.5T and has no mention of CLUB ONLY!!!
http://www.brca.org/index.php?q=sections/subsections/pages/gt12-rules/13572.

, i told you to read the entry form where there is a line which i have made bold for you and section 7 of the rules

Originally Posted by RCMadShane

I think not... Please show me where in the Rules (Link below) that it states that 21.5 is for club only??

http://www.brca.org/index.php?q=sect...12-rules/13572

exactly its not clear as the "club guide lines" are in the rules as an a apendix.

21.5 is NOT a national class

try reading the entry form, i have posted this before

http://www.brca.org/index.php?q=cont...onbridge/17800


Class Rules
13.5T brushless motors as per Electric Board list.powered by a 1S LiPo cell on Electric Board list. Approved ESC in “blinky” mode as per Electric Board list
Or
G2 brushed motor powered by 4 cell NiMh

NB 21.5/2S combination is NOT allowed at National level

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by RCMadShane

Listen I do understand your points on the 1s v 2s argument but I think you may have missed where I am coming from..
1. Clubs need to follow the BRCA rules if we do not then we find that people have to spend more money to run in a national..
2. The BRCA stipulated that the 2s option was permitted so now many clubs have adopted this option.
3. By deleting the 2s option removes all club drivers from being able to enter a national
Is this really in the best interest of the sport.

it would seem not, we have repeatedly told you that 2s is not a national class.. its club rules only, clubs follow at thier own choice, i have said if the 2s was removed or had never been there then folk like you would not have got so confussed

[RCMadShane]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

i really do not see what you need to be told, i have already answered and proven you to be incorrect, myself and trev both have competed at nationals, please re read my post 57 and you need to get youre facts correct, 2s has NEVER been a national class


, i told you to read the entry form where there is a line which i have made bold for you and section 7 of the rules




exactly its not clear as the "club guide lines" are in the rules as an a apendix.

21.5 is NOT a national class

try reading the entry form, i have posted this before

http://www.brca.org/index.php?q=cont...onbridge/17800


Class Rules
13.5T brushless motors as per Electric Board list.powered by a 1S LiPo cell on Electric Board list. Approved ESC in “blinky” mode as per Electric Board list
Or
G2 brushed motor powered by 4 cell NiMh

NB 21.5/2S combination is NOT allowed at National level

Mark you kept publishing an Entry list... I disregarded this as it is not the rules it was an entry... but yes correct I did miss your snippet referencing section 7 of the rules which Trev finally clarified for me so now we all can see clearly where we are.

It’s a shame it took so long going around in circles but I think we got there in the end.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by RCMadShane

Mark you kept publishing an Entry list... I disregarded this as it is not the rules it was an entry... but yes correct I did miss your snippet referencing section 7 of the rules which Trev finally clarified for me so now we all can see clearly where we are.

It’s a shame it took so long going around in circles but I think we got there in the end.

ok fair enough but this bit is prety clear

NB 21.5/2S combination is NOT allowed at National level

[RCMadShane]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

it would seem not, we have repeatedly told you that 2s is not a national class.. its club rules only, clubs follow at thier own choice, i have said if the 2s was removed or had never been there then folk like you would not have got so confussed

Yes Mark...... Shame you had not picked up that we had miss read Section 7 of the Rules. Don’t worry Trev sorted it out

Please remember it’s the rules we were trying to follow not an individual entry list.

[LongRat]

Glad you guys have wrapped this up, so I can go back to my illegal batteries and pushing my products for sale. That's really been my agenda the whole time - honest.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by RCMadShane

Yes Mark...... Shame you had not picked up that we had miss read Section 7 of the Rules. Don’t worry Trev sorted it out

Please remember it’s the rules we were trying to follow not an individual entry list.

lol i pointed you to rule 7, i told you you had miss read the rules, not much more i could do...

[SlowOne]

OK kiddies, get the teddies back in the pram!!

I think this just goes to show that Roger has a point, and that whatever is or is not agreed at the EGM next year, I do have to make things clearer for everyone.

The GT12 Rules are laid out the same way as the 12th Rules and in accordance with the BRCA Constitution. When voting for Rule changes, all Construction rule changes require a 2/3rds majority of those voting to be passed. Procedural, organisational, class and racing rules only require a simple majority of those voting.

In order for 21.5/2S to be included as a National class it must be a Construction Rule. It was voted in as a Construction rule. We then voted on whether it should be a class for Nationals and that failed. The idea was that since low-cost speedos did not have a 1S capability, and fitting receiver packs or boosters was an additional complication for new drivers, 2S/21.5 would be a good option for new drivers so it was left there to help clubs and meeting organisers.

Since then, two things have happened. 1S/13.5 has become the majority choice in clubs who have taken up GT12 - more clubs race this combo than 2S/21.5 - and there have been at least two good, low-cost 1S compatible speedos made available. Since we cannot make equivalence between 1S and 2S cars (been there, done that in GT10 - it doesn't work!) we have reached the point we are now.

The desire for the BRCA to set something up for clubs to use is quite evident, so that is what we will do. If we do it in Appendix form it allows us to respond faster to updates from clubs on which motors/cells are being used and are fixed timing/hard-cased. If we (I!) keep it up to date it is of more value to racers and club committees.

I hope that explains it better. Contacting me isn't the exclusive preserve of Trev and Mark, anyone can. Clicking the 'Send a message' tab on my profile usually gets that job done, or contacting me through the BRCA website. HTH

[RogerM]

Right, looks like I will go the 1s route, even though a bit pricey for me.

The open question is will I end up having to move over to let the 2s boys past at club? Guess time will tell!!

I think the way you have the rules written currently ARE ambiguous and need some attention. Sure you will sort it out though.

Now to get hold of the kit I need .... any problem running a Futaba 9550 servo from an Orion 1s ESC or will I need a booster?