Bring back true stock racing

[overson]

I started driving with 27T brushed motors and so did my son.
we both found it a good class to start in, not to fast.
thing got faster when brushless speedo's and motor came out but we had the experiance to handle the it. but beginers found it harder.
Since timing advance speedo's have been used i think the fun for new drivers has been lost.
I see new drivers with very fast cars crashing because the carnt handle the power and after that they give up because it cost to much for parts.
The thing is they want to keep up with the other cars so have to have the timing advance.
I think we should have a true stock class for non timing advance speedo's like the lrp zero speedo
http://www.lrp.cc/en/products/electr...egler/details/
I think this will level the playing field for beginers and make it more fun for them.
It might even bring more drivers in to the sport as the number's at meeting have been getting smaller.
What do you as drivers think.

Neil.

[Matt Airbrushing]

the problem with fixing the sypes of speed controls used is that many racers wont want to replace a perfectly good speed control with a new one.

I think that 13.5 is too quick when advanced.

At Bedworth they race using 17.5 motors which are much slower and even with a trick speed control (which very few people are using anyway) the car is still "slow"

[Craig W]

Or take up the roar rule for stock of no timing on speedo n the speedo flashes telling you that it in zero timing

[SlowOne]

The problem with these 'no-timing' speedos is that it transfers the costs to motors and cells, and brings back the problem of too much motor timing giving you a bag full of motor bits. If you want to find a class easy for people to set up, race and have fun with, then follow Bedworth's example and go to 17.5.

The speedos with timing features make the motors perform more efficiently, and it is noticeable that since they came in there have been less blow-ups (dodgy speedo software excluded!) than we had with the early non-timing speedos. It is a better way to derive speed than using motor timing only, which is what people seem to think they want.

No-timing speedos will increase costs, and exclude many from a fast car because they cannot learn the black arts of motor tuning. Keep it as it is. I was right about everyone needing a computer on the pit table when the world clamored for BL, and I;ll be right about this, too. Within short, you'll be back here complaining about costs and motor breakage. 17.5 is the answer you need, not another (expensive) speedo. Just a thought...

[Nige]

I think it would be a good idea to set up a cheap standard class for new entrants and those current racers on a limited budget. So long as you set out which esc's, batteries, etc can be used within the rules and ensure people only use 'club' motors which can be distributed before each race day (to prevent anyone tinkering with it ). The emphasis will be on the fun of racing, rather than cheque book racing.

Surely if you want more people at the track each week you need to make it affordable.

[overson]

Just what i was tring to say Nige.
we need a affordable stock class to get more drivers to the clubs, 13.5 is just to fast with these new speedo's for new drivers. I liked driving TC cars but got put off by being over taken by faster cars and when i got a new speedo ( LRP stock spec) so i could keep up a new speedo (GM 2010) came out that was faster, Then Tekin made there's faster. when does it stop.
If there was a limit so i could keep my esc,motor and lipo for a year or so and know it was my driving or set up that lost me the race not the fact that i did not have the latest parts it would put the fun back in to racing for me and im sure other drivers must feel the same.

[geubes]

We have been running 17.5 at South Hants for the last 2 years now and it has and still is the most popular class at the club. With the new Gen ESC's the top end isnt much different to old 13.5 speeds, but they are a lot easier to drive with much less wear on parts.

I am surprised not many other clubs have already taken 17.5 up as their stock class

[bert digler]

Originally Posted by geubes

We have been running 17.5 at South Hants for the last 2 years now and it has and still is the most popular class at the club. With the new Gen ESC's the top end isnt much different to old 13.5 speeds, but they are a lot easier to drive with much less wear on parts.

I am surprised not many other clubs have already taken 17.5 up as their stock class

does stock not mean a set of rules if a speed controller can alter timing ie motor rpm per volt isnt that cheating

[Craig W]

They run control speedo and motor at ets speed passion v3 15.5 citrix stock spec all you can change is the brake settings

There going have to be some rule change in stock class to slow it down

[dale]

As mentioned, Bedworth run 27T BR and 17.5 BL as the "Stock" class. So far, the lap record in this class is still held by a 27T BR motor.

This class works well; a newbie can run a cheap 27T BR setup for very little money. The experienced guys can run BL without all the maintenance headache. Both end up with about the same performance. A few people have tried timing advance ESCs, but the effect seems to be less with these motors than with faster ones.

13.5 BL is massively faster than 27T BR, and any club running these together is being unfair on newbies and those on a budget.

[SlowOne]

Originally Posted by dale

As mentioned, Bedworth run 27T BR and 17.5 BL as the "Stock" class. So far, the lap record in this class is still held by a 27T BR motor.

This class works well; a newbie can run a cheap 27T BR setup for very little money. The experienced guys can run BL without all the maintenance headache. Both end up with about the same performance. A few people have tried timing advance ESCs, but the effect seems to be less with these motors than with faster ones.

13.5 BL is massively faster than 27T BR, and any club running these together is being unfair on newbies and those on a budget.

+1 If you want low cost as your first priority, go back to BR motors.

Just be clear that making a level playing field for stock is impossible, but that lowering cost and keeping things simple to attract and retain beginners is entirely possible, as Dale and the Bedworth Club have shown. HTH

[Conrad]

Originally Posted by SlowOne

The problem with these 'no-timing' speedos is that it transfers the costs to motors and cells, and brings back the problem of too much motor timing giving you a bag full of motor bits. If you want to find a class easy for people to set up, race and have fun with, then follow Bedworth's example and go to 17.5.

The Speed Passion (Shawn Palmer on rctech) guys did test out different specs of lipo batteries with the new stock spec speedo's and said it made zero difference to the performance of the car. They also said the sweet spot was 8 teeth wide because of the 0' timing. The only way to stop the motor torture is to have an approved list of fixed timing motors to go with the 0' timing speedo's.

Personally I think brushless is fast enough without the timing advance/turbo features and I don't see why we need to carry a laptop with us to go toy car racing always in search of that perfect speedo setup to give us a slight advantage. Throw cells at it, race it, clean it, repeat process <--

[SlowOne]

That's almost word-for-word what we were told when they put a stop to the silly timing advance on stock BR motors ten or more years ago - and they were sooooo wrong! They staked the timing at 24 degrees and said that all motors would be equal and cells wouldn't matter. The rest, and they say, is history... which is about to repeat itself, it seems...

[Conrad]

^^ Can't argue with that. I suppose no matter how you work it to make things even there are always ways around it unless you run a one spec series which would only ever benefit one company.

[madcrazybonkers]

I loved stock class as when i 1st started racing i went for mod speed need speed and could not drive for toffy till craig harris said i should try stock so i did and went on to win the welsh indoors result then moved back to mod and found that i could now drive.
I have now come back to 1/10th after 8ish yrs away and would love for a stock class to race in to help get me back into it but sadly every1 is using silly quick motors that make my 15x2 on the stright as if im going backwards, so im having to go BL next month with a 8.5t and lipo's just to try and keep up.

Bring back a good stock class for new comers and old gits returning lol

[Si Coe]

It doesn't matter what rules you set, someone will always 'bend' them. People claim they want close, level playing field, low cost racing, but offer them an advantage and they all go for it!
The deal with stock motors years ago also proves the point that manufacturers need their stuff to be better than the rest too, to shift product. For a very short while we did have a level playing field, until Trinity changed the game with the Paradox (and sold a lot of motors as a result).
But its not just manufacturers. Dislike the 'need' for a timing advance esc? Blame the first person in your club to buy one then. Because until they got theirs you didn't 'need' one to be competitive because you weren't at a disadvantage. They got it to gain an edge at the expensive of a throwing a load more money into the sport, and now you have to keep up.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - controlled, low cost racing doesn't work. People will always search for an edge......

[Matt Airbrushing]

Originally Posted by Si Coe

It doesn't matter what rules you set, someone will always 'bend' them. People claim they want close, level playing field, low cost racing, but offer them an advantage and they all go for it!
The deal with stock motors years ago also proves the point that manufacturers need their stuff to be better than the rest too, to shift product. For a very short while we did have a level playing field, until Trinity changed the game with the Paradox (and sold a lot of motors as a result).
But its not just manufacturers. Dislike the 'need' for a timing advance esc? Blame the first person in your club to buy one then. Because until they got theirs you didn't 'need' one to be competitive because you weren't at a disadvantage. They got it to gain an edge at the expensive of a throwing a load more money into the sport, and now you have to keep up.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - controlled, low cost racing doesn't work. People will always search for an edge......

I think it depends on what you are aiming for.
You will never be able to design a class where the rules prevent anybody from gaining an advantage by spending money. Even if you force everybody to use the same components somebody might buy up ten motors and pick the best one.

However stock class is a great way to slow the cars down and make the racing closer.
I normally race offroad but ive been having a go at onroad lately. When I first raced I just used the 5.5 brushless I use offroad. In a touring car this motor was way too powerful for my thumbs to handle. Although it was fun having so much power it was hard to race anybody as the speeds were so high.

Now im racing in the 17.5 class and the racing is much closer. There is a bit of difference caused by different ESC but its not very significant.
The main advantage isnt the cost saving but the closer racing.

[Bob Burr]

Yes we run 17.5 at Bedworth alongside 27t brushed motors which up till now seems to be working extreamly well.
There was some concern over the turbo speedos in this class which we are keeping an eye on but up till now there seems no problem, checking over old results in the 27t class from a few years ago the track record is 19laps in about 314, the fastest 17.5 so far is 18 in 304, you also have to take into account that the old 27t guys were running at 1500g not 1350g plus they had Nimi cells not Lipos which did drop of quite bad during a run.
We are prity confident that if the old 27t guys had Lipos and could run at 1350g they would have gone much quicker and would probably of been doing low 19 lappers (306, 308 or roundabouts).
When the 17.5 guys start thrashing the old times maybe we will have to do something but at present its OK.
Some talk has gone on about going to 21.5 (on another forum) think this would be a big mistake, you need to gear a 17.5 at about 3.5 overall at Bedworth this requires very small spurs and big pinions, old cars like the TC3/4 with there high internal ratios strugle to do this, can only guess that a 21.5 would need gearing about 2.5 to 3 overall, think even some of the modern cars may struggle to acheave this.

[sosidge]

Originally Posted by SlowOne

That's almost word-for-word what we were told when they put a stop to the silly timing advance on stock BR motors ten or more years ago - and they were sooooo wrong! They staked the timing at 24 degrees and said that all motors would be equal and cells wouldn't matter. The rest, and they say, is history... which is about to repeat itself, it seems...

There is no comparison between the effect of 24deg brushed motors on stock racing and the current situation.

There was rarely more than three basic teardowns of brushed motor on the market. If you happened to have one that was not competitive - just buy a new one for a lot less than £30. There was a lot of nonsense written about brush and spring tuning, but even if you indulged in that the cost was about £3 for a set of brushes, and you would be changing those quite regularly anyway. There was no speed advantage in ESC's, and any relatively fresh pack of NiMH's would give ample power too.

Now, we are blessed with batteries that barely deteriorate and motors that barely need any maintenance. They are fit and forget. But all the money and hassle we have been saved by them has been far outweighed by the absurd ESC situation. Racers will have pumped hundreds into ESCs over the last few seasons to keep up, and even then, they need a laptop trackside to optimise the performance. And because the settings are so extreme, you start cooking motors unnecessarily, especially since people can also crank the physical timing on brushless "stock" motors.

I'm a fairly experienced and technically adept person, but even I tired of adjusting my speed controller and motor last winter. It's a tweak too far. And this winter, there is some even more complicated software to get my head around. I can't say I'm looking forward to it. I just want to gear my car and race.

With these new Speed Passion "Club Race" combos (sensored motor AND speed controller) at under £100 UK price, the time has come to bring back a true STOCK class in clubs, with untimed speedos and locked-timing (17.5) motors.

I know it's hard to get people to spend money to replace usable stuff, but these combos are less than the price of a programmable speedo, and barely more than the price of an adjustable-timing motor.

[Dave Treacy]

I think Bedworth have it spot on!

We are introducing 17.5 as our stock class as many drivers are on the limit with new ESC's and 13.5, and this is even more pronounced as we race indooors.

It's not a power issue or even a speed issue.... my WGT ususally is 1 lap up on the best 13.5 TC times over 5 mins and I have half the energy (1s LiPo) but run a 10.5 motor (and an old Novak GTB non timing esc). But as I have big foam tyres the car is easy to drive!

TC's on rubber are at the limit of adhesion and therefore very edgy. 17.5 takes this away and means it's back to driving skill rather than being able to keep on the edge and hope you don't bin it. Some of our very good drivers still make mistakes and a high speed off puts them to the back of the field from the lead...often caused by going over the esge on adhesion, not ability.