Street Touring Car Class

HPI Paul · #1 16-07-2011

Following recent discussions about the Street Touring Car Class, thought it might be an idea to develop the discussion on the forum.....

Scott - please can you make this a sticky.

HPI Paul · #2 16-07-2011

Initial thoughts for the objective of this class is having a reduced speed/ less expensive touring car class. General discussion to date has been on the following five areas:

1. Chassis: As a start, I suggest any TC chassis is fine but 'in the spririt' of the class, people should refrain from spending loads a money, i.e. it should be 'budget' touring car, the likes of the schumacher Mi1 or one of the better RTR cars or simply an older chassis bought second hand, the likes of what most people tend to run anyway.

2. Bodyshell: a bit of a subjective rule, but it needs to look like a real car, not an aerodynamic blob as Maz puts it.

3. Tyres: a defined control tyre; schumacher carpet dragons have been a popular proposal to date. Basically, it doesn't need to be the best performing tyre, just needs to be durable, give a balanced handling and overall, a level playing feel. Note that reduced speeds should reduce tyre wear

4. Motor and ESC: control motor and possibly control ESC as well. Brushed or brushless?? Following Maz' suggestions, if we go brushed, a HPI Saturn (either 27T or 20T depending on what speed we are looking for) would be suitable and appriate at £10 a pop. Brushless could be a stated ESC (proper stock, i.e. not even capable of turbo/ boost) and motor, for example the bullitstorm 17.5 combo, available from hong kong on ebay for about £40 and with a pit card for about £50. I have one of these and will aim to be a long next friday for people to try it out and see what you think. Also, pretty much all brushless ESC's come with a low voltage cut off, which most brushed esc's do not.

5. Batteries: Nimh's or Lipo's?? limitation on capacity?? Nimh's are harder to come by, Lipo's have to surely be the way forward and very affordable now. Perhaps a limit on the capacity, say 5000mah and maybe a limit on the C rating??? - I think a limit on the C rating is more important than the capacity.

What are you thoughts?

Paul

bedsrcmcc · #3 16-07-2011

Paul

Andy Bracey ran his car in 'Street' format last night with a standard tin can motor and to be honest I was surprised at just how 'driveable' it was. I had a go with the car with carpet dragons on and it was not painfully slow, the grip was poor but then that's the point of the class to some extent to keep the speeds slow.

I think we should try one of those HPI brushed motors as well Paul. My gut feeling it that brushless will simply be to fast. If there is not a large gap between the street cars and the normal Touring Cars we run then why have the street class?

With the limited grip that the carpet dragons give a driver, we should steer clear of brushless.

I appreciate that Maz had a go a couple of months ago with some tests, but to be honest (no offence intended Maz), Maz is the wrong person to trial the street class as his driving skills are far too good. We need those who would probably be running a street car to race a few meetings and then we'll get a better idea of how they will perform.

I fully agree about LiPo as it's so much easier for a newby to the sport in terms of maintenance and charging, as as you say, LiPo prices have fallen dramatically now that everyone is using them. To give you an idea, the equivalent LiPo that I purchased 2 years ago for £100 can now be purchased for less than £50 these days, and if we run tin can motors you would not need a high spec LiPo, hence even cheaper than that

In terms of bodyshells, I'm happy to trawl the Internet and come up with a list of shells that can be used. I'm sure we can provide a list of more than 20+ shells to choose from.

ek9russ · #4 16-07-2011

My thoughts and ideas

1. Chassis:

I would agree any TC chassis, there is a few of us that already have them, I don’t think it has to be a cheap class in terms of chassis choice (that’s what the Mardaves are for) I stopped doing TC as they got too fast, and not being the best driver was normally in the class that was “out of control of their driving” and just got fed up of being driven into all the time.
I think people also appreciate the engineering behind the more race spec chassis.

Also have a higher weight limit on the car

Are we trying to do a reduced speed class, or reduced cost class? Or both?

2. Bodyshell:

I like the idea of none race car shells, (like no protoform and hotbodies shells) Maybe it should be something that isn’t on the BRCA list. Yes I’m sure someone will turn up with a HPI Saleen bodyshell that is streamed lined, but with the control on the motor, tyres and batteries I doubt it will make much if any difference.

For this class I think we should have a best chassis and best bodyshell prize on offer as well.

3. Tyres:

We should stick with a Schumacher supplied tyre, as they have been good enough to support us with prizes since we have started the club. So carpet dragons would be ideal.

Maybe they should be mounted on none dish wheels, just so it fits in with the none race bodyshell idea.

4. Motor and ESC:

Not really sure 17.5 will be much different from 13.5, Chris and Ian I believe used 17.5 and are normally up there with the rest of them if not faster, ok they did have the turbo function on! Again there is people who have stopped using their TC and still have the equipment, could these people still use their old ESC but unplug the sensor wire to stop them using the turbo function on them?
I would like to try 21.5 and see what that is like.

Schumacher do the Cirtix stock Brushless ESC for RRP £59.99 and the Speed Passion Ultra Sportsman 3.0 Brushless motors for RRP £34.99. Could make a good combo, and I’m sure someone could get the price down on something like this

Having a some sort of brushed motor equivalent would be good idea, if someone has a RTR or old chassis they can get it up to spec without spending too much money.

5. Batteries:

I think both, Nimh just because they come in most RTR kits, and also lipos because they are a lot less hassle and again most people have them. If we go down the route of limiting lipos it should be done on capacity and C rating, not price. If we limit price people will only get the high spec packs from Hong Kong. At least if it’s done on spec, it gives people the choice on what they spend.

I would suggest the following rules;

Any 1/10th chassis with any hop ups etc. With a minimum weight limit.
Any real life car shell (none BRCA/ None legal Racing shell)
Prize for Best Chassis and Best Bodyshell
Schumacher Carpet Dragons, mounted on none dished wheels
A Brushed Motor choice (TBA)
A Brushless Motor(TBA) with non turbo ESC, or sensor wire removed if Turbo function is available.
Nimh Batteries, and Lipo Battery. (with a limit on the capacity and C Rating)

HPI Paul · #5 16-07-2011

Don't be too quick to dismiss 17.5 brushless. You should not confuse it with turbo and boosted 17.5, yes they are all but as quick as 13.5 but without the voodoo magic, there is a much bigger difference. Chris Hampson was the pioneer of this at Bromham about 18 months ago when he was running 17.5 without boost and turbo and for me the speed was spot on and about what I think we are looking for with this class.

Paul

bedsrcmcc · #6 16-07-2011

I think we need to make sure the street class is much slower than the normal touring cars and with that in mind, having watched the Touring Cars as they currently are for the last couple of weeks, I believe that even these are far too fast for our track now.

The technology has moved on quite far in the past year or so and I think we might even want to consider banning turbo boost for the normal class and maybe evening restricting that to 17.5 to allow for a much closer and manageable level of racing for our track.

The more I think about it, the more I think we need to take a couple of steps back and look at Touring Cars as a whole...

Keith Gammons last night ripped the back end off his car! We are now seeing higher speeds and bigger damage to the Touring Cars. Therefore I feel that the speeds for the entry level class, be that F2 or Street or what ever we decide upon should be much slower than what we were first thinking about - hence my comment about Andy's TC running a tin can last night which I felt was close to the sweet spot in terms of the speeds I personally felt we were aiming for.

More food for thought...

bedsrcmcc · #7 16-07-2011

How about this for TC:

http://www.modelsport.co.uk/speed-pa...products/37697

and then we find a good brushed system for the Street class.

Food for thought...

Andybra · #8 16-07-2011

Hi All

I have just aquired a TC second hand from someone on the Oople forums - should arrive next week. Got it for less than an Mi1.
Most of the suggested rules sound good but:
Personally would prefer a control on Motor/esc that was brushless. These seem more evenly matched and last longer. 20 brushed motors from a box will have vastly different performance!! A speed less than the current TC's and faster than Mardaves but suitable for the hall.
I picked up Turnigy Lipo's at 20c and 5200mAh for our buggies for under £30 a pop!
Dragon tyres - good.
Bodyshells - good.
Make em real, add lights, nice wheels etc. Bit like the quality finish you see in drift!
Make it fun with less crashes :-)

Sort it out soon so I can buy the right bits...........

Keep it clean, see you all Friday

bedsrcmcc · #9 16-07-2011

Does anyone have a 21.5 Brushless we can see on track?

Until we see variations on track then it's going to be difficult make a clear judgement, but I'm all for a spec that stops cars flying off the track...

Even I find that the turbo boost speedo has affected my racing since getting one. I only got one to try and keep up with the likes of Maz & Co. I wouldn't be sorry to see them dropped even for the main TC class...

ek9russ · #10 17-07-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by bedsrcmcc

How about this for TC:

http://www.modelsport.co.uk/speed-pa...products/37697

and then we find a good brushed system for the Street class.

Food for thought...

That's the same one as I was on about

I'll see if I can get a 21.5 for next week, and if Paul brings his 17.5 we can go from there

hashiriya · #11 17-07-2011

Just a few of my thoughts to try and make this move forwards a bit more.

I don't think any restriciton on chassis is necessary, by reducing the speed from the motor and the grip slightly by opting for a treaded tyre with no additive, you've negated the advantage of a top line race chassis with extra rigidity. If anything, a cheaper more entry level chassis will be easier to setup due to the extra flex generating the grip.

As for weight limit, if we are allowing Lipo, we should not have a 1500g limit. It's not a realistic target for most touring cars unless you want to carry a lot of extra weights. I think the the same weight should be fine but if you insist on it being heavier (which in the long run will increase tyre wear) then maybe find a weight inbetween like 1400-1450g. I don't think it's necesasry to change this portion though.

I think the pace of an HPI saturn 20T would be ideal for TC at Bromham. Fast enough to make beginers need to learn to drive but slow enough that intermediates arn't hanging on just to get their cars around the track. I believe that there should be a brushless equivalent made available also.

With the BRCA currently creating a list of static timing "blinky" ESC, it will serve as a great guide to the sort of brushless ESC that we can allow into the class. I don't think a control ESC is practical but we can always recomend one which most club members use.

I agree with the aero body thing. I think this should be a scale class for scale bodies. also agree that if we opt for the carpet dragon as a control tyre, we should say no dish wheels. It'll add to the realism factor

I don't think there is any real need to a limitation on the Lipo size of C rating as if the motor and ESC doesn't pull the amps, the battery can't deliver it anyways. It's not going to make any difference.

So in summary for my thoughts on how th eclass should be:

Any TC chassis
weight limit minimum 1350-1400ish
Body: any true scale body and no non scale wings (anything as long as you don't take the p)
Tyre: Carpet dragon, fixed insert and non dished wheels
Motor: 20T saturn or brushless equivalent (tests will should whether this will be 17.5 blinky or 21.5 blinky)
ESC: Any brushed ESC or Brushed ESC with no dynamic timing features (blinky)

That should be enough to get things started i think.

I'll come next week with a 20T saturn bolted into my TC to check the pace. I'll also keep my brushless ESC in there for ballast and also if anyone has any 17.5 or 21.5T motors that I could borrow to test.

Andybra · #12 17-07-2011

Any TC chassis
Weight limit (if necessary) minimum 1350-1400ish
Bodyshell: Any true scale body and no non scale wings (anything as long as you don't take the p)
Tyre: Carpet dragon, fixed insert and non dished wheels - no additive.
Motor: 20T saturn or brushless equivalent (tests will should whether this will be 17.5 blinky or 21.5 blinky)
ESC: Any brushed ESC or Brushless ESC with no dynamic timing features (blinky)
Definately need a brushless choice

.[/QUOTE]

Thats a good summation I think. Lets test this out.

bedsrcmcc · #13 17-07-2011

Maz,

Interesting and as always well thought out comments

Thoughts on your reply...

Agree that we should not restrict chassis, especially as someone might want to go and buy a second-hand chassis off eBay which could be cheaper than a RTR chassis - though your comment on setting up of a basic RTR is also very valid and probably aimed at those who are brand new to the RC racing.

Good point about adding weight, I'd forgotten that LiPo's are so light that having to add so much lead weight might cause it's own problems, lets get a feel what car weights are over the coming weeks to see if we leave it along, or add a few extra grams.

Happy to accept a brushless equivalent to the Saturn if there is one out there, again there needs to be some testing.

Agree that we should not have 1 ESC, that link was just an example, sorry if it came across trying to restrict to just 1.

I was not sure about banning the disc wheels at first but as several of you have mentioned it maybe we should go down that route, would make them all look more like road cars

Happy to go with no limit on LiPo's if as you say it will make no difference to overall performance.

I think your overview looks good, but I'd like to see some in action first as I'm sure many others would before we make any final decisions. As we are not running this class as a championship scoring points class just yet, then there is no rush for us just yet to pin down the rules.

BTW Maz, what do you think about pulling back our cars just a little, maybe running 17.5 instead of 13? What about switching off turbo boost too? I think we'll still be fast, but probably a little more controllable for those of us chasing hard to beat you

hashiriya · #14 18-07-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by bedsrcmcc

BTW Maz, what do you think about pulling back our cars just a little, maybe running 17.5 instead of 13? What about switching off turbo boost too? I think we'll still be fast, but probably a little more controllable for those of us chasing hard to beat you

I don't think it's a problem. however going down to 17.5 or going back to 13.5 with no turbo won't make a big difference, but it may take that edge off that you're looking for.

A club local to where I live (unfortunately not been able to race there for a while) has just cut it's motor limit to 13.5 blinky or 17.5 with turbo. I think the 17.5 will end up quicker in that situation but I think it's a good starting point.

Andybra · #15 18-07-2011

Maz

Excuse my ignorance but what is Blinky?

learnerdriver · #16 18-07-2011

non turbo setting on modern speedos, you get a blinky light to show you are in non turbo mode is my understanding

hashiriya · #17 18-07-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by learnerdriver

non turbo setting on modern speedos, you get a blinky light to show you are in non turbo mode is my understanding

Chris is absolutely correct.

Blinky is a nickname that has started to surface (mostly in the UK i think?) which denotes the blinking led on certain ESCs which continually flash when they are set into a non timing mode.

ROAR (the North American RC racers governing body) were one of, if not the first to officially introduce this. I belive they called in "sportsman" and they have a homologated list of approved ESC that can be used. more info in the links below

http://www.roarracing.com/?p=655
http://www.roarracing.com/?page_id=737

As I understand it, the BRCA 12th scale committee has decided to officially introduce a class involving these ESC in one of their classes for the 11/12 season (as the 12th season runs through the winter) and so within the next few months, the BRCA electric board will produce either a list or a set of guidelines/specifications for "blinky" ESCs. When this list becomes available, it should serve as the basis on which non turbo ESCs will be ok to use. Of course, there will be others that we should allow on a club level (like older models which won't get homologated but are known to be OK) but that is for future discussion.

Another can of worms is what do we do about sensorless systems? Naturally they can't boost timing so should be ok?

slow bob · #18 18-07-2011

Hi not realy helping this topic sorry, but i like the idea of the street touring car class so when you have it all sorted it sounds like the class i would like to race

Keep up the good work ..

hashiriya · #19 18-07-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by slow bob

Hi not realy helping this topic sorry, but i like the idea of the street touring car class so when you have it all sorted it sounds like the class i would like to race

Keep up the good work ..

thanks Bob. I remember when I started racing as a young boy, part of the appeal was the image of driving that car. for those 5 minutes I drove a Ferrari, or Skyline or similar and I think there is a lot that can be achieved in such a class. A slight shift towards scale realism allows people to get more creative with body shell designs and encourages people to get creative and learn the skills of body prep etc. Russ from the local model shop has offered (I think i might be putting a few extra words in his mouth) a prize for the best shells which is a great!!!

I hope this does work out and it'll be what I put most of my effort into over the next few weeks to try and make it work at our club. Maybe if it suceeds, we can inspire more clubs to try something similar to bring TC racing back to the masses?

hashiriya · #20 22-07-2011

Slight snag on the testing front tonight, I've managed to forget my transmitter so I don't have all my gear to run. If anyone has a spare transmitter and receiver or wants to try out my car with their radio gear, the offer is there...

Just let me know so I can prep the car for tonight.