Wheel chair access

[Body Paint]

Just reading some stuff on another thread and I figure this warrents proper discussion.

Firstly, if I sound negative at all in what I say then that is not the case, I have been thinking about this for quite a while and would very much like to find a solution.

As regards the BRCA I fail to believe that it is a BRCA mandate that all rostrums have to be wheel chair friendly. In my 30 years of racing I can only think of a handfull of rostrums that are accesable by wheel chair. If it were true then all the 10th Natinoal tracks do not meet BRCA regs.

For Caldi we did have several discussions on how to:
a. get wheelers up on the rostrum
b. get a suitable seperate rostrum for wheelers

Unfortunately all the ideas we had either were too dangerous,

too expensive (sorry but finances have to be considered as all our clubs non profit making and have very low financial resources)

or just wouldn't have given you good enough visability even on our track with no artificial features.

Maybe some of our more industrious members could think of possible solutions that we all could consider ???

chris-on-wheels and Jayslim may be able to answer or find an answer to my next question. Are there any grants available to make our venues more disabled friendly? either at a regional or club level?

I know our "community hall council" have had many grants when mencap were using the venue on a regular basis. I will ask the Hall committee what may be available to the "Venue" to help.

Any ideas welcomed for discussion, and I hope this is taken in the positive manner it was intended

[jaysllim]

i can see were your coming from craig and in onesty i can only remember 1 person (although i am sure there were more) who i would class as needing help with getting up and that was lee taylor.

in the email chris hardesly sent to me regarding there position on the matter he him self does say that the brca have not really looked into this them selfs but are trying to solve this problem.when i was speaking to dad last night he said that on the brca web site when you register direct with them there is a new part were they ask if you have a disability. wether this is true or not i do not no because i havent had a chance to look into this.

as regards to the rostrum i no and agree with you alot of the options are either just plain and simple to dangerous or to damn expensive.on the grant side of things i dont even no were to start to look but what i can do is ask my housing officer( i no he's a housing officer but he is pretty clued up on most matters) to see if he can point me in the right direction.

i have been looking into so telescopic ramps and was shocked to see the prices around the 300 mark for a 5ft ramp.i think some of the problems are=

1.we only really have temp venuse as in we have to put the equipment away after we use it.so to make something has to be removable/de-constrcuted.

2.as an organisation we havent really come across this situation before.wether this was because disabled people seen the restrictions and problems they face and thought it was to much of a problem to start racing?

3.what ever ramp/lift or watever we make will take alot of man hours and money to construct.whitch as you just pointed out all clubs are non-profit organisations and all club members who work on the contruction of the tracks and rostrums are pretty much volunteers.

i think the indoor series will be alittle easier for wheelchair users to get on to the rostrum than outdoors because outdoors we seem to build the rostrums alot higher than indoors.

in all onestly craig i dont see what you said as a negative more as a positive because you are only pointing out facts.how we come around these i dont no but i hope we can all work sumit out.

[Big G]

Southport has a ramp for wheelchair access as it took me a while to realise what the hell it was during my 1st visit there at this year's national event

Other than caldicott indoors I don't remember seeing any other ramps for wheelchairs.

[millzy]

Hi Craig,

Have you seen a copy of the Email from Chris Hardesly? I do not have it but im sure Jay will be happy to forward it on to you.


My understanding is that if any one entering requiring disabled access to the rostrum the club regardless of the class or event are required to provide, failing to do this will be a breach of Human rights and be classed as discriminating to the disabled as it will make the event open only to the able body

Obviously there are areas such as timing /finance blockages/ Uneven ground that are out of the clubs control that can not be helped.

As for suggestions, We have looked into requiring at a ramp such as the one at Caldicot that we could bring with us, and the club would only need to provide a rostrum / box (apologies for the pore term )

Also, I personally thought that you had required funding for your disabled ramp you have at club, reading from above is this not the case?

I would like to suggest the WRCA approach an organisation like Mencap and purches ramps and disabled rostrum platform for all its registered clubs as this would provide racing availability for those disabled at all times.
However this dose not solve the issue of racing outside of the region, but dose help with the WRCA championships

One point I want to make is how graceful we are that Caldicot club have provided the access for there disabled members/racers and that the features of the track have also been designed to cater for the low sitting position of the disabled members /racers.

I personal enjoy racing at Caldicot and have dose for over 10 years its one of the best long running club in the WRCA ,the welcome and the effort put in on this matter as always felt positive.

[blue_pinky]

Caldicot are very fortunate, our ramp was donated to us! Someone had one lying around that they didn't need...very lucky

[mark-rc]

After reading both threads as regards to wheelchair access and the BRCA, I feel like I should comment. I have been a wheelchair user for 30 years, fortunately I am not bound to my chair and am able to get out of my chair to walk up the rostrum, I can stand but I have to be able to lean and hold on to something otherwise I will fall. I have been racing for 24 years, I started in 10th off road and then raced 10th on road and now 1/8th rally cross, which I have been doing for about 10 years. I have raced all the classes from club level up to National level. I always found when racing the 10th off and on road classes, from club and National level, that both the clubs and the National organizers could not do enough for me. I only ever asked for three things to help me be able to race at the meetings, ‘to mark out a pit area as close to the rostrum as possible as so I don’t have to try and go round all the tents and tent lines with my chair, a replacement marshal as I am unable to marshal, and to place my friend who helps me at race meetings in a different heat from me, so he can help me with my car and getting on the rostrum’.
When I started racing 1/8th Rally Cross I loved it! It was more of a challenge due to the pit lane and fuel stops, but it is the class I’m best at and enjoyed the most. After racing Rally Cross at club level for a season ‘to learn about engine and car set up’ I was ready to enter the Nationals. Both my friend and I contacted the BRCA Rally Cross section as regards to entering the Nationals and asked if they can help with the three requests that I mentioned above, we got a reply saying that ‘the BRCA are more than happy to have me at the Nationals and that they can and would sort out the three requests that I asked for, and if there was anything else they could do to help me on the day to please ask!
The first National day came around, we excitedly pulled up to the track with a forest of tents, looking for the area marked out for us. There wasn’t one! We got out of the car and had to pit in the middle of all the tents. Once the pitting was set up we went to look at what heats we were in, we were in the same heat! My friend went in to race control to say that we need to be in different heats and that we did contact them well before the meeting to inform them of our needs. They eventually moved us one heat apart, but they would ‘not’ provide a replacement marshal for me! And that I would have to get my friend to marshal for me. By the end of the day I felt like crap! I had to watch my friend not only try and have his own race day, but also had to help me on the rostrum, fuel my car and marshal for me! The second National came around, and it was the same thing! It went on like this for the whole season, I was never made to feel like the BRCA wanted me there and they were not doing all they could to help me. By the end of the season I felt so low at how we were treated that I was going to pack in racing!
It was only after talking to Glyn Morgan that he convinced us to enter the RRCi series and that he would not treat us like the BRCA did, and true to his word, he was brilliant! We did two years of the RRCi series and Glyn was fantastic and did everything he could to make sure our race day was as problem free as it could be for us.
Now after a number of years away from the Nationals, my friend and I thought we would enter them again this year, thinking that hopefully things would of moved on and we would not have the same treatment as before. The first National, and there ‘was’ a marked out spot for us. But then the heat list, we were in the same heat! No replacement marshal. Here we go again! As I am unable to get in to race control my friend had to go in to ask to move us out of the same heat, he was ‘told’ to get out of race control as they were busy! When he tried to talk to explain, he was then shouted at and told to leave race control. We looked at each other in disbelief. Eventually, they listened, my friend said that we had all these problems the last time we did the Nationals and that was why we stopped doing them, the reply we got was ‘well maybe the Nationals is not the series you should be doing and should look at racing at other series’! We were speechless! They moved us one heat apart, Glyn Morgan did his best on the day to help, and got people to help my friend with marshaling for me. We have not done another National this year. To add to how bad this is, I know for fact, that a certain person from the BRCA has complained about me and the fact that I cause them hassle entering the Nationals.
I guess my point to this, is that it’s not always just about access to get the wheelchair on to the rostrum, but much more than that. At the highest level in any given class of racing is where you would expect they would be the ones to do all they can to enable a disabled person to enter and compete at the race. In my experience this is not the case, not in 1/8th Rally Cross, yet at club and Regional level, they do all they can and more! But what’s Important is they show they ‘want’ to help even if it is beyond what they can do for you.
I read in one of the replies from the BRCA chairman ‘Any club that is unwilling to comply with making the effort does not get the opportunity to run Nationals. Any club that positively discriminates against disabled access is not welcome in the BRCA’ I wonder what you can do when its the BRCA who are the ones doing the actions in the above quote?

[peetbee]

Wow Mark, that does sound like a nightmare and really shouldn't be tolerated.
Have you contacted chris hardisty to raise this?

[jaysllim]

All i can say is basicaly the same as pete “wow“ again im not trying to be a parrot but have u spoke to chris hardisty on this matter? whilst reading tha i have to admit tha alot of what has happend to u has been a worry of mine since i first thought about coming bk to racing and yes i have came across problems but i have found that the club i race at (caldicot) is more than willing to help me out and even if it is not in there power then they make it within there power(if tha makes sense lol), but in fairnest i cant comment on any other series or club as i simply havent had chance to race in/at them. It does sadden me to read what has happend to u in the past but lets just that times r changing for the better.

I no it is not n e use to u now but mby u should have a word with chris nd see what he says

[sldmodels]

I'm not a wheelchair user, but my ex is. There's only 2 clubs I've been to that have had wheelchair access, the first being Wrexham, and the other being Ardent. Wrexham's rostrum is a really good setup. You're not on the same level with the other drivers, but about halfway up, but the key is, the wheelchair part is further forward, so you've still got a good eyeline of the entire track. Someone mentioned approaching Mencap, I'd also say try local Rotary clubs, "Lions" clubs, and Scope among others. Lottery funding would seem the obvious choice, but seems to have the most number of hoops to jump through.

[bodgit]

That rostrum at wrexham has gone a few years ago. Sold for scrap. Lots of arguing at the club, increased monthly rent and rates meant a lot of us gave up going there. We had a great onsite indoor venue there too with a ramp for wheelchairs, seperate pitting room full electric supplies but thats all gone now. Just a small rostrum outdoors and a tiny village hut to race indoors.

[mark-rc]

Well, at the end of the National season, I sent an email to the BRCA and got no reply, I was so disappointed with it all, I just wanted nothing more to do with it all, but as I said, we entered the Nationals again this year, and nothing much had changed. My friend and I were made to feel like we were causing trouble. And the requests I asked for were to much of a problem for the BRCA.

I'm not to sure where writing to chris hardisty would get me? all I can see from that would be even more resentment towards me and my friend.

[crtpromachine]

Originally Posted by mark-rc

Well, at the end of the National season, I sent an email to the BRCA and got no reply, I was so disappointed with it all, I just wanted nothing more to do with it all, but as I said, we entered the Nationals again this year, and nothing much had changed. My friend and I were made to feel like we were causing trouble. And the requests I asked for were to much of a problem for the BRCA.

I'm not to sure where writing to chris hardisty would get me? all I can see from that would be even more resentment towards me and my friend.

Welcome to the real world Mark of rc racing and the BRCA;

After my accident 4 years ago when a receiver pack blew up in my face and i was rushed to Cheltenham Hospital which was the nearst hospital at time of accident;All i can honestly say is the BRCA did f **k all to help or give me any advice of what to do or where to go ;

I could not email anyone or write any letters due to the explosion keeping me in hospital for 5 days before transfered nearer home; the accident left me with no sight at the time in left eye and very little in right eye, also had 40% burns all over my face from the acid in receiver pack;

I have had several operations on my eyes since the accident which has not only been metanlly but physically frustrating for myself and very lonely times. Also i have had endless hours of counselling anti depressents sleeping tablets and left with a brain that was fried for 3 years due to everything i had to go through;

Also took 18 months away from my hobby i use to love racing due to the fact i would not attempt to come back till i felt confident enough to be able to go out on a track and be safe to all other drivers;Without my true friends around me and there support and guts and determination they all gave to me over the 18 months of hell i can assure you i would not be here today ;

So it does not suprise me in the least that after several letter attempts, emails letters to BRCA etc.. you have not only sent to the rally x section but the BRCA to that you are still in the same position as you were a few years ago;Awaitng for some replys back or even some answers ;

The BRCA are for 1 thing and 1 section only and thats surely themselves


If i have offended anybody in any way please it was not expected to come across like that but i hope you can see what i mean and where i am coming from ;

You become involved in this sport you all pay your money and insurance membership and to be perfectly honest can some 1 answer me this question


What the f **k for ??????????????????

[DCM]

Well, this is where the confusion lies, with regard to the BRCA and insurance, and that it only covers incidents that happen within the confines of the track, not in the pits. Sometimes there is no one person who is at fault, and that is where we get 'freak incidents' from. I did hear what happened to you, and it is shocking. And not to sound patronising, if you sliced your hand open with a sharp blade, whilst fixing your car, you would not expect the insurance to pay out either. But in both incidents, you would expect your governing body to help you as much as possible with getting the right advice/help and to make strenuous efforts to get you back racing.

[kayce]

Having read both of these similar threads, and being that I grew up with two handicapped brothers, I feel like I can see and have experienced both sides of the discussion - but it disappoints me when it turns into a one-sided argument or ends with rash claims of discrimination.

One of the first rules I learned as a child (and enforced by my parents) was that nothing in life is fair all the time for everyone, and just because you want something some way doesn't mean it's everyone else's responsibility to make it so.

What this reminds me of is going to the beach, which has public access, and expecting wheelchair access across the soft sand to water's edge. Something that would be wonderful, and right in a totally righteous world, but as my mother used to say, "if the world were righteous your brothers wouldn't be handicapped."

Yes, we now all live in a modern time with many modern conveniences, and handicap access provided at most all public facilities (and funded by taxpayer dollars), but at the same time I think some of us are overlooking that we're all still involved with a rather small segment of the population in a smaller-yet hobby and dealing with clubs and organizations that have terribly limited funding and racing at facilities not funded with taxpayer dollars.

So it really hurts my feelings when I see references about "discrimination" when I don't think that was ever the intent of the event or club organizers, because it wasn't like there was a sign that said "no wheelchairs." True discrimination in this case would have been if they'd set aside a pit area specifically for you at the furthest spot away from the track, or insisting you do your marshal duty in your chair.
Instead this seems to be more a matter that wheelchair users need to be more aware of their own special needs and be prepared to provide for themselves too, instead of just relying or making demands on the organizers.
So whether that means they arrive early so they get a pit spot close to the track (since it is first come, first served, for everyone else too), or they bring their own "substitute marshal" (instead of making it someone else's responsiblity), or they get an actual "lift chair" (like someone I know that races rc cars) - we have to remember that what we're doing can't reasonably be treated like everything else out there, where there are wheelchair ramps into (some, not all) buildings or handicapped parking spaces in front of stores. Expecting as much is not only impractical, but not cost effective unless we're going to discuss drastically increasing entry fees for everyone to pay for these things, or maybe looking into public funding to pay for these accomodations.

It's been my experience at larger events that the organizers really don't have the time to talk to anyone, about anything, as they're up to their ears just keeping up with keeping the event moving forward. They're not being rude, and I doubt they were in this instance, but overburdened with all their other responsibilities.
- Pit space: Them stopping everything, and getting them to force someone to move their tent to give you their space is kind of over-the-top.
- Marshalling (or pit-man duties) replacement needs: regarding your request to be placed in a seperate heat from your friend, it seems you're not looking at the bigger picture. First, it's my guess that all you have to do is roll out there for marshal duty once, and the race announcer would be calling for a volunteer. But second, what is going to happen when/if you and your friend end up qualifying for the same finals? Who is going to pit your car for you then? Realistically, it doesn't matter if it happens once or it happens all event, you need to be making your own plans instead of expecting others to make special accomdations. Seems that in both scenarios you're not making good enough plans for your own support system, as in bringing another friend or family member to assist you.
If you were a "regular participant" at National events, I would guess they would be more expecting the associated problems and probably more cognizant of your needs, but as a first-time (or occassional) participant I don't think it fair for them to have things in place just in case you show up.

Relative to the driver's stand - something else to consider is a indoor track I visited, that because one of the owner's close friends was wheelchair bound, the owner installed a special ramp and drivers stand to accomodate him, with a low railing for him to be able to see over and everything. Nice, for sure, but there were two problems: 1) he told me it cost him more to build the special accomodations than it did for the rest of the driver's stand, and 2) once the building inspector came by he received a code violation because the "special" railing section was too low for everyone else and his insurance company wouldn't cover his liability if anything happened to anyone that fell over the low railing. He was forced to scrap it, just to save the facility.





As far as the "receiver pack explosion" mentioned above, other than saying I'm sorry it happened, I'm not quite clear that it's the organization's insurance or liability to pay for what you (for all intents and purposes) did to yourself, no more so than I'd expect them to pay to fix my broken leg if I jumped off the roof of the driver's stand. Batteries are one of those gray areas of "assumed risk" on our part, just like the handling of dangerous nitro fuel, and there's no way the organization or their insurance carrier can be expected to cover damages for something so dangerous if not handled properly or something there's no way to prove either way if you precipitated (or not) the explosion, any more than you'd have a claim against the battery or charger's manufacturer. Again, I'm sorry for you pain and suffering, but I don't think it's the club's liability when I had a pack explode two years ago and it left a very nasty bruise or when I stabbed myself this year with a screwdriver. IMHO, that's what personal injury insurance is for - not the track's.

[crtpromachine]

I am not in anyway blaming anybody or any clubs for the accident that happened to me all i was clearley stating is there was no help,advice or guidance in way shape or form from the governing board that everyone thinks they may be

I fully understand it was a freak accident and hope that no one has to go through what i did

If there was some more help advice out there may be things would be easier on everyone who is in the world of rc;

As they say a little understaning goes a very long way

[jaysllim]

Kayce i dont expect anythong of anyone all i was askimg for is help but how u r putting makes me sound like i stamping and kicking my feet because im not getting my own way

[kayce]

Originally Posted by crtpromachine

I am not in anyway blaming anybody or any clubs for the accident that happened to me all i was clearley stating is there was no help,advice or guidance in way shape or form from the governing board that everyone thinks they may be

I fully understand it was a freak accident and hope that no one has to go through what i did

If there was some more help advice out there may be things would be easier on everyone who is in the world of rc;

As they say a little understaning goes a very long way

Since the "accident" happened in the pits, it's not really any different than had you been driving your full size car out of the car park and hit a building at the track and required hospitalization. Should that have been the responsibility of the organization?

[crtpromachine]

Originally Posted by jaysllim

Kayce i dont expect anythong of anyone all i was askimg for is help but how u r putting makes me sound like i stamping and kicking my feet because im not getting my own way

Could not agree anymore with your post mate and i wish you all the bloody sucess in getting a few more clubs with disabled access and to allow alot more people come racing that are in wheelchairs as there a fair few of you out there

[jaysllim]

I think we r getting of topic here guys

[crtpromachine]

Originally Posted by kayce

Since the "accident" happened in the pits, it's not really any different than had you been driving your full size car out of the car park and hit a building at the track and required hospitalization. Should that have been the responsibility of the organization?

Firstly the accident did not happen in the pit area and all i was saying is a bit of help advice would have been something but did not get offered anything apart from the racing community itself anyways this is about wheelchair access and not my accident