Ardent Raceway and HPI 24hr Le Mans RC challenge!!

[jasonb]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Vince

Sounds about right. We're going to bash around on a random 17.5 from the spares box and the justock until theres an offical announcement. However I cant see it going any other way.

Does HPI produce a sensored blinky speedo?

I don't think they have anything suitable in their range at the moment, but that could change. I assume the Castle based once could be made to run in blinky mode not sure if they are all sensored though.

The justock fits the bill as it's cheap and so far has been reliable (we put nearly 6 hours on the car last weekend). Wouldn't want to run a full blown TC spec speedo in the 24hr event.

Jason

[Jonathan Vince]

Originally Posted by jasonb

I don't think they have anything suitable in their range at the moment, but that could change. I assume the Castle based once could be made to run in blinky mode not sure if they are all sensored though.

The justock fits the bill as it's cheap and so far has been reliable (we put nearly 6 hours on the car last weekend). Wouldn't want to run a full blown TC spec speedo in the 24hr event.

Jason

The Flux Reload V2 from the same factory as the ezrun ESC thing? If so its sensorless.

Yup boosted anything will probably destory the sprint.

[jamesg]

Its good to see people talking about this again, I was getting worried everyone had packed up

As Jason says, the Dudley and Doris cars speed looked similar (at least down the straight). We were all happy with the speed compared to last year's Saturn motor. It was virtually the same sort of pace but with a little more torque, which isnt a bad thing, they have to last afterall. I think anything with timing is an obvious no. I would be very surprised if it was announced that we are to run anything other than 17.5T blinky to be honest.

As for tyres, we are hearing of Moorespeed 36's instead of Sorex 32's? I can't see the need to change the tyres really, I thought the Sorex's were great. I would change the insert though. We had the ring of death on the inside of the tyre where the belt finished and the tyre wall construction started. I assume that was down to the combination of a very thin insert and the 26mm rims. When we looked at the tyres after the race, the middle part of the tyre was untouched.. literally. The 2 outside edges were a quite worn along with the afore mentioned ring but the main section of the tyre was not making much contact with the carpet. Whatever tyre is decided I think a thicker insert should be concidered to improve the contact patch and therefore tyre durability/performace.




A few more thoughts/suggestions -

• I hope we keep the HPI +3 and +6mm offset 26mm wheels. It would be a shame to loose the scale look of the cars from last year.
• I quite like the look of the HPI BMW M3 GT2 for a body shell either as standard shell or an option to the Porsche 911.
• I think we should have all teams assemble the tyres under the supervision of scrutineer(s). Last time this was planned to happen but in the end everyone could assemble their tyres anywhere, potentially enabling them to fit whatever insert they felt like.
• Rules; we need to make some. I think we should outlaw any non stock parts on the car apart from spur/pinion, wheel nuts, bumpers/padding, parts for battery swap systems and body clips. Anything else should be banned. Last year we ran to 'gentlemans' rules and to keep the cars within the 'spirit' of the event. This is all well and good between gentlemen. I can tell you now, I saw some bits that I thought were pushing the boundries. People will always want to gain an advanatge but to make the racing closer and to give the new teams a fair shot, we need to make a set of clear rules from which everyone can tune and prepare their cars to.

Just my 2 pence.

[jasonb]

I think you might get your wish on the shell

I'd have thought a 36 would be too hard especially give the low power and racing through the night. I'd like to see 3 sets of 32s allowed last year it wasn't the ware that was the issue it was the sidewalls tearing apart that was the problem.
Don't have a problem with fast change battery systems and the like, to be honest some of the ones I saw last year looked like they caused more problems than they solved...
Last years Doris car was pretty standard apart from screws, nuts, springs and a few shims here and there. All the cars were checked over by John before the start of the event and a few more times during the race

Jason

[jamesg]

Excellent, BMW M3 GT2 shells do look the shizzle and may withstand abuse better compared to the 911 with its shape.
Nuts (wheel only), springs, and shims - yes, but replacing the entire screw kit seems a little naughty really to me based on the spirit of the rules last year. Along with aluminium servo horns, ball studs, ball cups and bearings. If someone has the money all those things may seem minor but they add up to an advantage non the less.

If we run the cars as close to stock as possible which I'm sure most teams did last year, we will have better racing and people won't have to shell out more money to stay on level terms. Like I said, we need some written rules. They don't need to be long, just to the point, non contestable and agreed by the majority of the teams. I wouldn't mind getting involved in that, maybe writing something up and posting it on here for everyone to comment on/add to if it helps John and the Ardent lads out? It must be a nightmare organising something like this so if I can help, I don't mind chipping in. On that note I have some new HPI wheels and Sorex 32's that I got for testing (assuming we were using Sorex's again). Is it worth us trying some thicker inserts (which everyone decides on) in those and doing some long runs for feedback? I will only use them if we are reasonably sure on the tyre though. The tyres weren't cheap and I can use them elsewhere if there are plans to use another tyre.

Cheers

[SlowOne]

John told us what we could use and what not. He checked the cars and passed them - more than once during the race at random! This is a bit of fun, and let's face it you won't get any advantage from a bunch of ally screws. The Doris Team car was as stock as it could be with some attention paid to durability and set-up - see Jason's note above. If anyone else was using things that pushed the boundaries, fat lot of use it was to them - we won by hundreds of laps!!

I think John's discretion is perfectly fine as a set of Rules. The problem with a Rule Book is that it will take me no longer than the time to read it to find the loophole and make our car faster, better or lighter than anyone else's. I'd like to win on the track to John's Rules and not have every other team feel cheated because I am better with a Rule Book than they are. That is the fastest way to make sure that this event dies.

A benign dictatorship beats a democratic republic every time. Emperor John rules!!

[Jonathan Vince]

Doris feeling the heat here? Did everyone else have a front belt that when down the right hand side of the chassis? (Dez's photos are a gold mine)

I agree with Slowones comments. It all worked last year (less the motors). You could create the world’s longest list of rules, but it’s human nature to pick over them and find every loop hole there is. It just takes longer. However last year every clever advantage found seemingly created an equal disadvantage. Stokes clever belt, our huge heat sink, ect

The sprints problems are well documented, iffy steering, everything wearing, etc. All the information is out there. As long as everyone is open with what theyre doing and playing within those rules not messing with inserts etc if you can find a way of correctly these problems within the rules structure laid out last year without creating problems in other areas , fair play your google/car preparation skills are strong.

At the end of the day endurance racing is about 4 things Preparation, teamwork, consistency and luck. Ticking these boxes is more important then flipping a belt!

[jasonb]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Vince

At the end of the day endurance racing is about 4 things Preparation, teamwork, consistency and luck. Ticking these boxes is more important then flipping a belt!

Ironically we did it because we thought we were more likely to break a rear belt and it made it easier to change. We had our first belt failure in testing last week and it was the front one but it had done last years event so was upto 30 hours track time

Jason

[jamesg]

Lads, I wasnt shooting anyone down. I was just making some suggestions.

In my opinion the rule of 'checking with John' is a little clunky is all, its an event with teams coming from all over to compete. If everyone is happy with how things are then that's cool. We didn't do to bad out of the rules last year to be honest with a suprise 2nd. Before the race our objective was to not come last!

[SlowOne]

And I wasn't either. "John's Rules" is the best way to ensure that teams can check what is and isn't allowed. A Rule Book is the best way for people to turn up with something that is allowed by the Rules, and walk all over everyone else.

John said he wanted the cars to remain as per kit. People have asked about using things that will make them last longer (like heat sinks and tyres) and John has made a ruling that we have all followed. That way we all know where we stand, and if a team turn up with something we think is not in the spirit of having a kit car, John simply asks them to get rid of it. Everyone is happy.

It ain't broke, let's not fix it.

[Jonathan Vince]

Talking about John's rules (That sounds alot like a post murder law) where is he?

Firming up the motor and tyre regs would be cool...

[Andysan]

Without meaning to stir up lots of **** and create unecessary fighting for what should essentially be a bit of fun, the rules last year were far too loose and as a result were broken. I've never actually seen 'John's Rules' that everyone is referring to, however the event web page last year references the following;

Cars must remain stock apart from springs.

Source


We (Dudley) attempted to stick to these rules - if you were running ally screws, replacement servo horns and ball studs etc then you were in breach of this rule and technically should have therefore been disqualified. Bottom line, I don't see how that can be disputed - replacement uprated parts are not stock.

If a set of definitively outlined rules is defined and teams can find loopholes in them, well I applaud that personally, thats what it should be all about. But lets not pretend that the majority of teams didn't break the above-mentioned 'super-rule' - if we are going to run to this again, then it should be interpreted as is.

Do I think we would have finished any higher if other teams weren't running ally screws? Probably not. Would I like to have seen these teams disqualified last year? No, of course not. But I think we're all a bit wiser this time around - come on, lets lay it all out on the table once and for all as to what is allowed and what isn't, and then theres no more arguing thereafter.

Looking forward to this years 24h.

[SlowOne]

My recollection is...

The ally screws were dismissed as something that would't (and didn't) matter. Some teams were having serial problems with the variability of the HPI ball joint systems and were allowed to use upgraded ones so that their problems went away and they could race more. Some of the servos used weren't as compatible with the plastic horn as they needed to be, so again an upgrade was allowed.

Some teams didn't manage to avoid the track markers was well as others. It seems to me they would have been doubly penalised if, not only did they lose time hitting the markers, but they also lost time and money constantly repairing their cars. I think John did the right thing.

Personally, I am looking forward to the issue of a Rule Book, then we can bring on a car you will all really moan about!! Problem is that the race then becomes the depth of the teams' pockets, and/or people don't bother turning up because they think they stand no chance. I like the fact that John made the race easier for every team by applying common sense.

Greatly looking forward to this year's race, and to John applying the same Rules he did last year. Every team entering will then know that they have as much chance of having a competitive car as anyone else, and that if they run into some problems, John is going to help them out. Bring it on!!

[Andysan]

OK - do I understand that the rules are therefore as follows:-

• No hop-up parts allowed that aren't considered to be generic (i.e. ball studs, tie-rod ends, replacement screws are OK, but ally hubs for example are not)?
• Custom battery braces are allowed.
• ESC's, tyres, motors, bodies etc... are as outlined by John.
• Minimum weight limit?

[Jonathan Vince]

Ok... But whos going to strip the cars apart before, during and after the race to look for Hop ups?

[jamesg]

Strip the cars apart? It would be no different to the guys checking the cars last year. You can see most of the parts on the car without stripping it down; its a fairly open chassis design.

The only exceptions are the bearings and diff/shock internals. The quick removal of 1 random wheel to check people aren't using some fancy Acer ceramic bearings and I wouldn't bother with the diff/shocks, its obviously impractical. There's not a lot that can go on inside there that would just come under tuning and shimming anyway.

Andy, I personally wouldnt bother with a weight limit to be honest mate as the weights of the Rx, servo and battery can vary so much. If someone wants to run a light battery with low capacity vs high capacity heavier battery then that just seems like race tactics to me and fair game either way.

[jasonb]

Originally Posted by jamesg

Strip the cars apart? It would be no different to the guys checking the cars last year. You can see most of the parts on the car without stripping it down; its a fairly open chassis design.

The only exceptions are the bearings and diff/shock internals. The quick removal of 1 random wheel to check people aren't using some fancy Acer ceramic bearings and I wouldn't bother with the diff/shocks, its obviously impractical. There's not a lot that can go on inside there that would just come under tuning and shimming anyway.

Andy, I personally wouldnt bother with a weight limit to be honest mate as the weights of the Rx, servo and battery can vary so much. If someone wants to run a light battery with low capacity vs high capacity heavier battery then that just seems like race tactics to me and fair game either way.

All sound like common sense, not sure how you'd police bearings any team running last years car is going to replace them and now way of telling whats inside. Thinking about buying a complete car set from RCBearings as its cheaper than buying a load of pairs of HPI ones unless they come as part of the refresh kit

Jason

[jamesg]

Originally Posted by jasonb

All sound like common sense, not sure how you'd police bearings any team running last years car is going to replace them and now way of telling whats inside. Thinking about buying a complete car set from RCBearings as its cheaper than buying a load of pairs of HPI ones unless they come as part of the refresh kit

Jason

Fair point mate and I've just checked online as we could do with some spare bearings, the HPI original kit bearings are like rocking horse ****.

I suppose John will just have to ask and trust that teams use standard rubber shielded metal bearings if replacing the kit ones. I'm sure this was how we rolled (ha!) last time unless anyone emailed John and justified a set of £90 ceramic bearings on the sly. But this is the point I was trying to make, with the way it worked last year, although a little extreme the other teams would be non the wiser.

I've never been on RCBearings, just had a look - £13.20 for a full set. Cheers Jason, good shout.

[Jonathan Vince]

Hold up, before you order I wonder if we could organise a group buy deal from RCbearings??? I've always found them really helpful in the past.

I'd be happy build the car within those rules, as long as we can fix the blasted steering before the boat like handling kicks in?

[jamesg]

Well we (Team Dudley RCC) would probably get 2 sets in, due to most of our bearings having done all testing and the race last year. To be honest they still feel smooth but its not worth keeping them in and risk mid race seize ups at that those prices.


How would we play a group deal scenario then? Is it worth it? They sound like a great price already, providing they are of reasonable quality of course.