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#21
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From Elvos guide ...... Lowering one end of the car, or putting the other end higher up, gives a little more grip at the lowest end, but try to avoid big differences in ride height between the front and the rear. Is yours a typo or not ? Also, people have mentioned lengthening the wheelbase to increase steering. I thought short wheelbase meant more nimble, better through tight slow turns and hairpins which is what Worksop is primarliy about and where the car is lacking grip. Whilst im not saying im right and others are wrong i cant get my head around the logic of some of these suggestions. Im crap at setup and i appreciate the input but need accurate info. I also cant get my head around how removing weight from over the front axle will increase the front end grip at low speed. If you exaggerate it and say put a bag of sugar over the front axle then im sure you wouldnt be lacking front end low speed steering thats all. Instinct says short wheelbase, more weight over front axle - i thought that was the idea of the brass bulkheads from the likes of Trish. ![]() Last edited by Rich D; 11-10-2010 at 07:50 PM. Reason: typo |
#22
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Cheers for the reply Tony, ive made a few mods to try at the Players. |
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Weight: Think of you car running full speed down the straight and you suddenly want to turn left. Which direction is intertia carrying your car? straight forward right? so the more weight you add, the more energy is required to change the direction of that end of the car. Another example would be to add weight to the rear of the car, you gain alot of forward bite AND high speed steering because when you initiate a turn at high speed the rear of the car is going to want to continue to go straight. Understand? Also by adding weight to the front of the car you loose forward bite quickly, because you slowing/limiting weight transfer to the rear wheels, the buggy will only generate a certain amount of force in attempting to lift the front end and loose grip. Summary: more weight = slower weight transfer and slower handling, less weight = quicker weight transfer and will change directions quicker. You can say that adding a bag of sugar on the front bulkhead would provide more grip... but you would have zero rear grip, every setting is a balance. That car with a bag of sugar on the front would never make a turn at the end of the straight, your example should show you how the weight works. Typically adding weight will mellow the car out on high grip, sounds like your conditions are not quite high grip so myself if I were in those conditions i would remove most of the weight on the front and center first and foremost. But thats just me Wheelbase: True a short wheelbase (hubs forward) will turn in a tighter radius, so that is a good setting for tracks with alot of 180 deg turns. I run short wheelbase because there are 5x 180 turns and only 2x 90 turns on our current layout |
#24
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Thanks for the clarification. Yes, that makes sense, i guess we misunderstood each other as its only the low speed steering where i felt that the car suffered. The high speed steering wasnt as bad as the low speed. Yes, the track had a lot of low speed, lowish grip tight turns. Anyway, got some stuff to try now so cheers for the input. ![]() |
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Hi Rich, I think the confusion comes around where it's lacking, at a minimum the corner is split into entry/mid/exit, in reality far more!! I think you mentioned at the start that what your missing isinitial turn in, to improve that the following DEFINITELY is the way to go:
1. Less Castor 2. Shorter Wheelbase And to an extent: 3. Less weight at front (less inertia, makes it more nimble) 4. Stiffer springs (the car reacts quicker) However: A). Stiffer springs will give less ultimate grip, more understeer B). Less weight at the front may also give less grip ultimately C). With wheelbase its the how that's key! If you could cut a centimetre out of the centre of the chassis then all good, but we do it through moving front/rear axles. That's why I was hesitant to suggest shortening it by moving the front axles back, pushing more weight ahead of the front wheels isn't a good move from prior experience! When I did 1:1 racing it was easy to tell whether the issue was initial turnin or general front grip, I'm not sure it's so easy with rc. Is it possible it has plenty of initial turn but quickly goes past the max grip at the front then creates understeer? Sadly, what all that means is if the obvious changes don't help, you may need to actualy go to counterintuitive moves to see if they help! Oh, forgot the most obvious, a lower front than rear will definitely give a bit more front end! I get lost with all the camber link stuff sorry, so no idea what all that stuff does!! Keep working the front changes before going on to the rear to take grip off!
__________________
Dave "Amish FJ" Gibson RB Products ~ Yokomo Nuclear RC ~ Xpert ~ Hacker |
#26
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Can't get time off for players Rich but will call in on sunday to see if your changes have worked. My rear hubs are the standard plastic versions, are these 0 degrees? What are the first changes in order of priority I should make?
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#27
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cheers rich,still learning the car myself
![]() ![]() edit dave sums it up much better above |
#28
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![]() It was only the first outing with the car at Worksop. The 511 felt fantastic first time there. Ive never made a high B final there before with any other chassis. In fact i think i was usually around the D in 4WD whereas ive gone backwards from the B in 2WD with the B4FT to the D with the 201 ![]() I appreciate that setup cant make up for skill with the thumbs and there are guys there with far more talent than i, it would just be nice to get it feeling similar to drive there to how my B4 did. Right now im kind of regretting selling it ! Anyway, cheers for the info guys, the fog has cleared a little though not completely. |
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![]() As for changes, i`ll scan and give you my setup sheet after the Players mate not a prob. |
#30
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standard ballstuds
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#31
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I think it's a shame that Lee doesn't reply and give some advice as he's the N° 1 TRF driver.
We need a good base set up for grass, clay, astro and indoor track just to make the car perform and make it more appealing to potential customers. ![]() |
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#33
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Didn't know that so we will give him some time to help us poor guys out
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#34
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you can flip the casterblocks around.. it will give you way less caster than the 25´ ones.
works great on low tractions tracks if you can keep traction in the rear. try using the outside camberlink hole on the front tower.. |
#35
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#36
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Ran my car indoors today with Lee's Belgium set-up. Had brass under the lipo and under the servo along with a big lump of brass i manged to squeeze under the steering ackerman bar. I was running on carpet with Mini-pins and it was handling lovely. I had no understeer issues at all.
I ran 40wt Rear, 32.5wt Front with Red and black springs and an all up weight of 1590g. Its the first time ive driven this car and i got to say i love it. Dare i say i prefer it to my Cr2.lol |
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Rich... it seems i had the opposite to you!! lol!!
Nothing on the sweeper everywhere else though the car was good. Okay i dont run a Tamiya, i run Fabs Mid RB5 MCS. Firstly i run 30deg front kick up.. this i find suits me, gives a little less initial but more mid and exit.. 25deg gives much more initial but is not to my likeing mid exit..I also run the hubs in the middle position and about 2mm on the ackermann which smooths everythng out for me.. I tried quite a few things on the car.. went from long to short wheelbase.. the car felt more planted and seemed to change direction quicker BUT didnt cure the sweeper for me.. i messed with front links.. ended up outer tower and outer hub.. the steering seemed to react quicker but again didnt give me what i wanted on the sweeper after the intial turn in it just washed out... For the players ive gone to a longer front link in the hope to induce more front end by rolling more.. ok i may loose a little initial but should hopefully gain mid and exit... so im inner tower and now inside hub.. I will see how this feels..im guessing it will be better, but i also think if i lift of the rear might snap away, but could well be controllable on the throttle..if so add washers under inner stud.. still not happy i will play with the rear links.. Ultimatley i like the feel of the car in long wheelbase.. i have run it everywhere in this guise out doors in all grip conditions, worksop is really the only place ive struggled.. saying that its the first time ive even run the car on this type of surface!! HOpefully i'll sort this coming weekend! ![]() Cheers Nick |
#38
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Hey Nick
Cheers for the info. Sounds like you're a lot better qualified at setting up than I am. I've made a few changes to the 201 and will be bringing Elvos guide with me this time ![]() The MCS sure looks to go well when set up right ![]() See you at the Players ![]() |
#39
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hi all.
as alec said i have been very busy lately, im currently sat trackside in Thailand, testing for 8th WC. right, things i would do to gain more steering: -Front wing -More weight in front -less washers under front ballstud -inside hole on arm -stand shocks up on tower (more low speed turn - less high speed) -longer front link will give you more aggresive turn, but less initial. -cut ribs out of front wheels to make softer Changing rear can also help steering: -longer wheel base increases amount of pivot -more washers under rear ball stud will loosen rear end -standing shocks up at rear more -smaller spur gear to move motor in. -smaller wing will make car more reactive have you tried all of these things?? Lee
__________________
Tamiya ~ Mugen Seiki ~ Viper RC ~ Pro-Line ~ Xpert Servos ~ BEAT ~ Protek RC ~ Amain Hobbies ~ LMR ~ Ultimate Racing ~ Nitrolux ~ Nibbo Designs ~ Stickit1 Racing ~ The World Famous TFR! ![]() |
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Thanks lee, just what I needed. Will give it a try
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